Israel approves new construction on security barrier

[raver_mania]

IMO - this is BS, and nothing more than a land grab.


http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/10/01/mideast.barrier/index.html

JERUSALEM (CNN) -- The Israeli Cabinet voted Wednesday to approve construction of the next phase of a controversial security barrier that leaves some gaps but goes deep inside the West Bank.

It settled on a plan that would start the construction of segments of the barrier but would not connect them to the main security barrier between Israel and the West Bank.

Under heavy pressure from the United States, which has declared that the cost of the barrier will be deducted from $9 billion in loan guarantees to Israel, the Cabinet stopped short of authorizing construction of a section of the barrier that would veer toward the Jewish settlement of Ariel, in the West Bank.

However, the plan authorizes the beginning of construction of barriers east of Ariel and four other Jewish settlement blocks -- Beit Arieh-Elkana, Nili-Naaleh, Gush Etzion-Efrat and Yatir-Sussia -- all deep inside the West Bank. Those barriers will not be connected to the main security barrier, at least for now.

In addition, the plan approves the continued construction for the central section of the security barrier from Elkana in the north to the Ofer army base just north of Jerusalem.

The government began building the barrier last year. In some spots, it is an electronic fence topped with razor wire and in other spots a concrete wall.

Israel has already constructed 93 miles (150 kilometers) of the barrier in the north. When finished the fence will st


retch 217 miles (350 kilometers) at an estimated cost of $200 million.

Palestinians say the barrier already has divided Palestinian land, forcing people to climb through gaps to shop and visit family.

The majority of Cabinet members voted for the plan, but four hard-line members voted no and one member abstained arguing there should be no gaps in the barrier.
Conflicting views of barrier

Israel has said the barrier is necessary to stop Palestinian terrorists from entering Israel.

The Palestinians call the barrier a land grab, noting construction around the settlements does not follow the so-called Green Line, the frontier between Israel and the West Bank before the 1967 Mideast war.

Palestinian Cabinet member Saeb Erakat said he believes Israel plans eventually to build a barrier around the Jewish settlement of Ariel. Such a move he said "will be the biggest blow to President Bush's two-state solution and will sabotage any idea of a road map."

"This separation wall does not separate Israelis and Palestinians. It separates Palestinians from Palestinians. It annexes 300,000 Palestinians into Israel," Erakat said.

The road map Erakat was referring to is a peace plan backed by the United States, United Nations, European Union and Russia. It calls for an end to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and the establishment of an independent Palestinian state by 2005.

On Monday, U.S. Assistant Secretary for Near East Affairs William Burns called on the Israelis to stop settlement activity and the construction of the barrier, insisting it "undermines Israeli and Palestinian interests."

"Settlements continue to grow today encouraged by Israeli government policies," Burns said at the U.S.-Arab Economic Forum in Detroit. "Settlement activity must stop."

A U.N.-appointed human rights expert on Tuesday said governments should condemn the barrier as an illegal act of conquest, in the same way they have criticized the taking of East Jerusalem and the Golan Heights, according to The Associated Press.

In a report made public in Geneva, Switzerland, South African lawyer John Dugard said the barrier cuts deep into Palestinian territory, blocking off huge swaths of land. He said it primarily is intended to protect Israeli settlements and not, as the Israelis claim, prevent suicide bombings and other attacks, said the AP.

Israel accused Dugard -- the U.N. expert on human rights in the Palestinian territories -- of bias and said it was acting in legitimate self-defense, according to AP.

[Leon]

Land grab?

Israel beat back the combined Arab armies of Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestinians and conquered land through war and defense. They were also the only country--other than the US--that has been attacked, repelled, conquered land, and are willing to give West Bank back.

Land grab? If Israel wanted to grab land I doubt the Palestinian issue would be ongoing today.

As for the West Bank Wall, it's a temporary solution to illegals crossing in to Israel as much as stopping the suicide terrorists. Once the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate the Jews (Golda Meir quote), perhaps we can speak and discuss the dismantling of the wall.

[raver_mania]

Otherwise make all the Palestinians full ISraeli citizens with a fair share in voting. But they can't do that now, can they, because otherwise their Jewish majority will no longer be there.
SO, just subjagate them to inhumane living conditions, and treat them so badly that they flee the area.
Sharon's government is run by a bunch of religious fanatics who believe all that land is theirs by some God-given right. They really do not want peace.

That fence is not going down after it goes up! Do you really think they're spending billions of dollars just so they can take it down again? One must be really naive to think that.

OK, even if that land was captured in a war, its occupied territory. Isn't it illegal under the Geneva conventions to have civillians move into occupied terroritories? These settlements are a huge part of the problem and now to have this dumb fence annexing a large part of the West Bank to protect the outposts! Total BS!

The reason they cannot and won't take the land and kick out all the Palestinians (by force of course)all at once is because that means international suicide. Even the US would not be able to stand by and let that happen. Its just easier and more feasible to do it bit by bit.

[Leon]

Originally posted by raver_mania
Otherwise make all the Palestinians full ISraeli citizens with a fair share in voting. But they can't do that now, can they, because otherwise their Jewish majority will no longer be there.


Not only are there plenty of Palestinian Israelis there are even some voted in to the Knesset.


SO, just subjagate them to inhumane living conditions, and treat them so badly that they flee the area.

That's a myth. Initially perpetrated by the Mufti of Jerusalem in order to incite riots against the Jews in the 20's through 50's. Of course myths tend to live if people are willing to believe them and attempt to propagate them.


Sharon's government is run by a bunch of religious fanatics who believe all that land is theirs by some God-given right. They really do not want peace.

Actually, the ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect called the Shah wants quite the opposite. Of course, someone who doesn't read any history or focuses on one sided current events would not know that.


That fence is not going down after it goes up! Do you really think they're spending billions of dollars just so they can take it down again? One must be really naive to think that.

They have a similar one by the northern border of Lebanon for similar reasons. They took down a large portion of it when they moved from the area. Of course, the Hizzbolah is endangered by peace and have maximized their attacks from the Lebanese borders.

The naivette is not eminating from me, sir.



OK, even if that land was captured in a war, its occupied territory.

Every area in this world is "occupied" territory that has been won by -- mostly -- offensive wars. Israel was attacked three times by combined Arab armies mentioned above. All three times they repelled them. Some country huh? I mean being attacked by the same enemies, winning land, stopping short when the US and UN asked them to AND not only willing to give back, they have--see the peace accords with Egypt.

[.gene.]

"Not only are there plenty of Palestinian Israelis there are even some voted in to the Knesset."


I don't know how good of an idea this was in the long run for Israel's security

[raver_mania]

Originally posted by Leon
Not only are there plenty of Palestinian Israelis there are even some voted in to the Knesset.

They have the same rights but its not upheld equally. I'm sure you know of the cases where a lot more money has gone into Jewish neighbourhoods than Arab ones. There is quite a bit of racial discrimination going on.



That's a myth. Initially perpetrated by the Mufti of Jerusalem in order to incite riots against the Jews in the 20's through 50's. Of course myths tend to live if people are willing to believe them and attempt to propagate them.

And you have proof to offer me? By the way, I didn't come to the conclusion that Israel wants all this land through readings accounts of Muftis inciting riots. Just by following current events and the actions of the Sharon government.




Actually, the ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect called the Shah wants quite the opposite. Of course, someone who doesn't read any history or focuses on one sided current events would not know that.

And there are also numerous orthodox sects that believe the land is all theirs. Are you going to refute me on that point? What percentage do the Shahs make up of all the settlers?
Also I didn't know sites like haaretz.com and jpost.com listed only one sided current events. Of course, all conservatives nowadays think that any paper that does not support their views must be evil liberal biased.



They have a similar one by the northern border of Lebanon for similar reasons. They took down a large portion of it when they moved from the area. Of course, the Hizzbolah is endangered by peace and have maximized their attacks from the Lebanese borders.
[B]

True. How much of that fence did they take down? How much did they spend on it? References, articles from unbiased sources?
How many farmers and peasants did that particular fence cut off from their land and families. On whose land was that fence constructed?



[B]
Every area in this world is "occupied" territory that has been won by -- mostly -- offensive wars. Israel was attacked three times by combined Arab armies mentioned above. All three times they repelled them. Some country huh? I mean being attacked by the same enemies, winning land, stopping short when the US and UN asked them to AND not only willing to give back, they have--see the peace accords with Egypt.

I'd like to think we live in more civilized times than the "this land is mine because I conquered it" era. They also used to have witch hunts in those days, does that mean we should repeat it? Also, btw, I don't think they had anything like international law in those days.
You see what happened to the last colonial power...had to fight independence wars against the people in all the lands they'd conquered.

I believe Israel was the aggressor in all those wars...might have been pre-emptive and even justified, but they were not "attacked" as you claim.
The war against Egypt was debilitating to both sides.

[Capt'nAmerica]

Originally posted by Leon
Land grab?

Israel beat back the combined Arab armies of Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Lebanon, and Palestinians and conquered land through war and defense. They were also the only country--other than the US--that has been attacked, repelled, conquered land, and are willing to give West Bank back.

Land grab? If Israel wanted to grab land I doubt the Palestinian issue would be ongoing today.

As for the West Bank Wall, it's a temporary solution to illegals crossing in to Israel as much as stopping the suicide terrorists. Once the Palestinians learn to love their children more than they hate the Jews (Golda Meir quote), perhaps we can speak and discuss the dismantling of the wall. :WINK :yipee :yipee

[Leon]

Hindsight wise, I don't know. Many Jews thought that Palestinian Israelis would choose Israel before they would choose anything else.

It was a good notion, and a good move, but I am not so sure that with Arafat anything can be accomplished.

I mean, if in 50 years from now, both Israelis and Palestinians are thriving economically, educationally, and health wise, I doubt anyone would care whether the majority of each particular area was Jewish or Muslim--and that was the goal from the Jews.

Of course, they totally miscalculated the deep seeded culture of hatred on the Arab counterpart and when the Jews were emigrating to Palestine, just how easy the Palestinians were able to be aligned with hate mongers like the <a href="http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_grand_mufti.php">Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.</a>

[Leon]

Originally posted by raver_mania
[B]Not only are there plenty of Palestinian Israelis there are even some voted in to the Knesset.

They have the same rights but its not upheld equally. I'm sure you know of the cases where a lot more money has gone into Jewish neighbourhoods than Arab ones. There is quite a bit of racial discrimination going on.

That's because the majority are still Jews. Like in America, when you have a majority of Republicans, you will have a Republican mandate passed more than a Democratic one. That's not biased, that's politics.

How many Jews are sitting in Arafat's Cabinet? Egyptian? Syrian? Labanese?



That's a myth. Initially perpetrated by the Mufti of Jerusalem in order to incite riots against the Jews in the 20's through 50's. Of course myths tend to live if people are willing to believe them and attempt to propagate them.

And you have proof to offer me? By the way, I didn't come to the conclusion that Israel wants all this land through readings accounts of Muftis inciting riots. Just by following current events and the actions of the Sharon government.


I'm a huge critic of Sharon and especially Netanyahu, but I balance my views objectively and do not lump one image throughout all issues. If Sharon is a war criminal, then Arafat is a terrorist and they deserve each other while neither of the people deserve their leaders.

The Jews have pulled out of Jericho, Hebron, Bethlehem, and were ready to pull out of West Bank in accordance of Oslo accords. That was right before the bombings started.

What has Palestinians done on their part except join in the shootings of Israelis by the same guns that were donated to the PA security?



Actually, the ultra-Orthodox Jewish sect called the Shah wants quite the opposite. Of course, someone who doesn't read any history or focuses on one sided current events would not know that.

Also I didn't know sites like haaretz.com and jpost.com listed only one sided current events. Of course, all conservatives nowadays think that any paper that does not support their views must be evil liberal biased.

You wouldn't because you are citing OpEd pieces. Jpost is conservative point of view, Haaretz is much more lefty. The truth is somewhere in between.



They have a similar one by the northern border of Lebanon for similar reasons. They took down a large portion of it when they moved from the area. Of course, the Hizzbolah is endangered by peace and have maximized their attacks from the Lebanese borders.
[B]

True.

So why are you calling me naive when I state that based on history Israel would take the wall down no matter the cost? Technologically, the walls are very similar.


[B]
Every area in this world is "occupied" territory that has been won by -- mostly -- offensive wars. Israel was attacked three times by combined Arab armies mentioned above. All three times they repelled them. Some country huh? I mean being attacked by the same enemies, winning land, stopping short when the US and UN asked them to AND not only willing to give back, they have--see the peace accords with Egypt.

I'd like to think we live in more civilized times than the "this land is mine because I conquered it" era. They also used to have witch hunts in those days, does that mean we should repeat it?

Why go to 1600's? Go to Africa today and see land changing hands every day, despite the UN and despite your so called "international laws." The only difference is that the Jews ARE civilized and choose not to subjugate and oppress and kill and maim.


I believe Israel was the aggressor in all those wars...might have been pre-emptive and even justified, but they were not "attacked" as you claim.

Now you are just talking out of your ass and make me wish I didn't even bother wasting my time.

[raver_mania]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Leon
That's because the majority are still Jews. Like in America, when you have a majority of Republicans, you will have a Republican mandate passed more than a Democratic one. That's not biased, that's politics.

How many Jews are sitting in Arafat's Cabinet? Egyptian? Syrian? Labanese?

But you don't have more money going toward only republican neighbourhoods, or communities. Whats the limit of land a non-Jew can own in Israel?
There's a big difference between Israel and the US. Being a second class citizen is not the same as being a citizen of your own country.




I'm a huge critic of Sharon and especially Netanyahu, but I balance my views objectively and do not lump one image throughout all issues. If Sharon is a war criminal, then Arafat is a terrorist and they deserve each other while neither of the people deserve their leaders.

The Jews have pulled out of Jericho, Hebron, Bethlehem, and were ready to pull out of West Bank in accordance of Oslo accords. That was right before the bombings started.

What has Palestinians done on their part except join in the shootings of Israelis by the same guns that were donated to the PA security?


I believe Barak and Arafat were negotiating even as the present prime minister, sharon was elected (incidentally, after inciting the second intifidah).
Why did Sharon not accept the roadmap? Why were settlements still being expanded and built while there was an explicit call to stop? Why did he break the ceasefire (Hell, I don't think he even recognized it).
Thats something we agree on, both Arafat and Sharon are ill-suited to their present positions. Only when moderates are elected, can there be any real chance of peace.



You wouldn't because you are citing OpEd pieces. Jpost is conservative point of view, Haaretz is much more lefty. The truth is somewhere in between.


Believe me I can cite you numerous articles, news pieces, etc, on stuff ranging from the brutality of the IDF and terrorists to the inhumane conditions the curfews place on the Palestinian people as a whole. And lets not forget shooting missiles and bombs into crowded neighbourhoods.


Why go to 1600's? Go to Africa today and see land changing hands every day, despite the UN and despite your so called "international laws." The only difference is that the Jews ARE civilized and choose not to subjugate and oppress and kill and maim.
Ahh, but they let their IDF do the oppressing, killing and maiming. Only they're more intelligent and do it gradually over time (dropping bombs into crowded apartment buildings comes to mind, as well as destroying homes).


I'm going to post a piece by Azmi Bishara - you can call it what you will.

[Leon]

[i]Originally posted by raver_mania [i]

But you don't have more money going toward only republican neighbourhoods, or communities. Whats the limit of land a non-Jew can own in Israel?
There's a big difference between Israel and the US. Being a second class citizen is not the same as being a citizen of your own country.

You didn't answer my question. How many Jews are sitting in Arafat's Cabinet? Egyptian? Syrian? Labanese? The Palestinians are fortunate, very fortunate. I doubt many countries and the governments thereof would allow an opposition to hold any seat.



I believe Barak and Arafat were negotiating even as the present prime minister, sharon was elected (incidentally, after inciting the second intifidah).
Why did Sharon not accept the roadmap?

Whoa, spunky. Arafat REJECTED what was laid on the table by Barak. He didn't even say, "hey, let me get back to you." He just started his intifada based on Sharon visiting a Jewish holy site as well as Muslim one. Did he throw rocks? Shoot anyone? Heck no, but he knew how predictable the Palestinians are with their hatred and it worked like a charm for his own politics.

Your logic and your thought process is already suspect, you are just validating my own thoughts of you and your agenda, however. Just doing a search on all of your posts in a nightclubcity site and it's all about Palestinians and the bad ole Israel.


Believe me I can cite you numerous articles, news pieces, etc, on stuff ranging from the brutality of the IDF and terrorists to the inhumane conditions the curfews place on the Palestinian people as a whole. And lets not forget shooting missiles and bombs into crowded neighbourhoods.

From the same people as Hess and other hateful fruits? Spare me.



Why go to 1600's? Go to Africa today and see land changing hands every day, despite the UN and despite your so called "international laws." The only difference is that the Jews ARE civilized and choose not to subjugate and oppress and kill and maim.
Ahh, but they let their IDF do the oppressing, killing and maiming. Only they're more intelligent and do it gradually over time (dropping bombs into crowded apartment buildings comes to mind, as well as destroying homes).

You are comparing African massacres with IDF? LOL! That's too rich. IDF targets the terrorists and unfortunately and very rarely do innocent people get hit. Rwanda genocide occured under UN's noses. Bosnian Muslims were not saved by Europeans but by NATO and the US--8 years after the fact.

The real truth is that too many people are still huge Jew bashers and even a small crumb of wrong doign gets maximized in to something more.

[raver_mania]

I used to post here a lot a while back, and hadn't been back in a while. I think thats why my handle has been reset. And what exactly would my "agenda" be?
Much as I would like to continue this conversation with you, I have work to do - but I might be back tomorrow. There is no "agenda" here - I post regularly on CP which happened to be dead today. I knew this place had a Current Events board where most of the members are hard-core anti-Palestinian republican'ish folk, so I decided to stop by and stir some debate.
Let me leave you with one question - do you believe the Israeli government has committed any atrocities against the Palestinians, or do you believe they are in the absolute right in this matter(Israelis)? I think I know what your answer will be...


Regarding Palestinians being "lucky" - are you blind? Do you not see any oppression in the OTs? And its still a war crime to settle people in areas taken in war. That is settlements.
Why was Sharon loathe to adopt the roadmap?

I guess the UN and Geneva conventions aren't really appropriate when they become inconvenient, huh.

And finally, I didn't bring up Africa - you did. You compared the actions of third world countries to the action of a democratic (in a sense), industrialized nation. Like I said before, a rampage similiar to whats happening in Africa will only serve to alienate the international community, hence not in ISrael's best interest. Rather, gradual annexation is a more feasible option.

[Leon]

Originally posted by raver_mania
Let me leave you with one question - do you believe the Israeli government has committed any atrocities against the Palestinians, or do you believe they are in the absolute right in this matter(Israelis)? I think I know what your answer will be...

Of course atrocitities have been committed. The most infamous one was by the Irgun gang (although condemned by Ben Gurien--the official and de facto Israel government at the time).

Jews are people, which makes them hardly angels. The differences are in degrees however and the approach to the solution vis a vis Palestinians.



Regarding Palestinians being "lucky" - are you blind?

The Palestinians have been fucked over by their Arab "brothers" more so than the Jews ever did to them. Check with King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan, where Syria was going to cut their piece of the Palestinian pie after the slaughter of the Jews in 1948. And let's not forget the Egyptians, who were licking their chops at the prospect of more Palestinian land.

Fact is that prior to the Arab military marches in 1947, the Arabs were the ones who were clearing the Palestinians who have lived in the area for many years and not the Jews.


I've answered your questions, now answer just one of mine:

How many Jews are sitting in Arafat's Cabinet? Egyptian? Syrian? Labanese?

If the Jews and Palestinians had reversed roles, there wouldn't be any Jews in Palestine and you know it with every bone of your body. That's what I mean by Palestinians being lucky. Their "enemy" were Jews, not Brits (India), nor the French (Algeria atrocities), or Russians (Chechnya, Afghanistan, etc...).

[Capt'nAmerica]

LEON owns you bud.

[raver_mania]

Originally posted by Capt'nAmerica
LEON owns you bud.

Obviously you'd say that - he's your bud. Anything to say about the topic at hand?
Nobody "owns" anybody on this topic - wish it were as simple as that, then the violence would stop. Nope - read that article I just posted, written by an Israeli and member of the Knesset.

[raver_mania]

Originally posted by Leon
Of course atrocitities have been committed. The most infamous one was by the Irgun gang (although condemned by Ben Gurien--the official and de facto Israel government at the time).

Jews are people, which makes them hardly angels. The differences are in degrees however and the approach to the solution vis a vis Palestinians.




The Palestinians have been fucked over by their Arab "brothers" more so than the Jews ever did to them. Check with King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan, where Syria was going to cut their piece of the Palestinian pie after the slaughter of the Jews in 1948. And let's not forget the Egyptians, who were licking their chops at the prospect of more Palestinian land.

Fact is that prior to the Arab military marches in 1947, the Arabs were the ones who were clearing the Palestinians who have lived in the area for many years and not the Jews.


I've answered your questions, now answer just one of mine:

How many Jews are sitting in Arafat's Cabinet? Egyptian? Syrian? Labanese?

If the Jews and Palestinians had reversed roles, there wouldn't be any Jews in Palestine and you know it with every bone of your body. That's what I mean by Palestinians being lucky. Their "enemy" were Jews, not Brits (India), nor the French (Algeria atrocities), or Russians (Chechnya, Afghanistan, etc...).

I'm not saying they were not fucked over by the other Arab nations. However, its not them that is occupying that piece of land now...again I repeat, if Israel is going to occupy that land, then make all the Palestinians full citizens. I'm also going to do some research on the interaction with the Arab neighbours and get back to you.
Regarding your question - I don't know how many Egyptians, etc are sitting on Arafat's cabinet (wasn't Arafat originally Egyptian?). I know there are no Jews on the cabinet. However, even in Israel, and correct me if I'm wrong, there is a limit to how many Israeli Arabs can be in the government, and those have much more stringent limitations on the maximum terms they can serve. So, in essence, them being in politics is not much more than window dressing.

Why did Sharon not want to follow the roadmap, or at the very LEAST, stop settlement activity while the truce or roadmap lasted? Why did he break the truce (remember it was an attack on a militant that triggered the bus attack). Why drop one tonne bombs on crowded apartment buildings?

[admin]

Your logic and your thought process is already suspect, you are just validating my own thoughts of you and your agenda, however. Just doing a search on all of your posts in a nightclubcity site and it's all about Palestinians and the bad ole Israel.

Its obvious that he doesn't like Jews, check out ClubPlanet board: http://63.250.36.152/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=61
check out his posts. Shocking that he's a Moderator on that site which is owned by 2 Jews (Dave and Andrew), they obviously dont read the board much.

[Capt'nAmerica]

Originally posted by Dmitry
Its obvious that he doesn't like Jews, check out ClubPlanet board: http://63.250.36.152/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=61
check out his posts. Shocking that he's a Moderator on that site which is owned by 2 Jews (Dave and Andrew), they obviously dont read the board much.

I used to post on the CP board as well and yes he leans towards the palestinian murderers more then the Isreali's, the bottom line is that the palestinians have reverted to sending their children to carry out cowardly acts of terrorism and if the tables were turned and it was the Arabs that possesed the militray might, there would be a crater where Isreal once stood. The conflict dates back to biblical times and it's unfortunate and sad that a solution to this promblem won't come in our lifetimes too much blood has been spilt but blowing up a bus full of children doesn't exactly help the situation and only warrents a retaliation by the ISREALI'S

[raver_mania]

Originally posted by Dmitry
Its obvious that he doesn't like Jews, check out ClubPlanet board: http://63.250.36.152/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=61
check out his posts. Shocking that he's a Moderator on that site which is owned by 2 Jews (Dave and Andrew), they obviously dont read the board much.

So, wait a second, I post articles and news links about the way ISrael is treating the Palestinians, and I automatically become a "Jew-hater"! lol
Never in my posts did I lower myself to personal attacks, just discussed the issue at hand, but I guess that was more than some of you could handle.
So far, no-one other than Leon has contributed constructively to this debate.

BTW, Dave and Andrew, I guess realize that there is freedom of speech, and that there is a distinctions made between "Jew" and "Israel".

[admin]

Originally posted by raver_mania
So, wait a second, I post articles and news links about the way ISrael is treating the Palestinians, and I automatically become a "Jew-hater"! lol
Never in my posts did I lower myself to personal attacks, just discussed the issue at hand, but I guess that was more than some of you could handle.
So far, no-one other than Leon has contributed constructively to this debate.

BTW, Dave and Andrew, I guess realize that there is freedom of speech, and that there is a distinctions made between "Jew" and "Israel".

You dont have to say it, its obvious.What does this post below have to do with treatment of Palestinians?
http://bbs.clubplanet.com/showthread.php?threadid=185560
if it was about any other religion you would have never posted it , but it bothered you that a school had to apoligize to the Jews.

[raver_mania]

Originally posted by Dmitry
You dont have to say it, its obvious.What does this post below have to do with treatment of Palestinians?
http://bbs.clubplanet.com/showthread.php?threadid=185560
if it was about any other religion you would have never posted it , but it bothered you that a school had to apoligize to the Jews.

NO, I would have posted it if it was any other religion. When that iissue came up about the Florida Muslim woman who wanted to take her driver's license picture with her veil on, I called it BS, and said she should follow the law.

No, Dmitry, don't try going around making assumptions about me, or trying to potray me as anti-Jew, when I'm just anti-current-Israeli-government. Jumping to conclusions, you might inadvertently put your foot in your mouth. You see, by the same token, I can say that most of the people here are anti-Muslim.


If it was any other religion, they would not have demanded an apology - and I still stand by my statement, its BS that they have to apologize especially in the context it was displayed.

[Leon]

Originally posted by raver_mania
I'm not saying they were not fucked over by the other Arab nations. However, its not them that is occupying that piece of land now...

What did you wish? Israel beat back the combined armies and then said, "You know what, we will commit mass suicide so you will get your wish on obliterating us.


Regarding your question - I don't know how many Egyptians, etc are sitting on Arafat's cabinet (wasn't Arafat originally Egyptian?). I know there are no Jews on the cabinet.

My question was how many Jews are sitting on the cabinet of "Democratic" concil of Egypt? Syria, and Lebanon? Jordan and Palestinian?

You complain that there aren't enough Palestinians in Knesset but yet you can't tell me that there are ANY Jews in the Arab government on the same level.


So, in essence, them being in politics is not much more than window dressing.

Wrong. Knesset is much more powerful and important than any Democratic government position in Middle East. Then again, Israel and Turkey are the only ones who ARE Democratic. Interesting how they have vied to have ties with each other as well as the Monarchy of Jordan--who is slowly trying to get Parliemant type of rule.


Why did Sharon not want to follow the roadmap, or at the very LEAST, stop settlement activity while the truce or roadmap lasted? Why did he break the truce (remember it was an attack on a militant that triggered the bus attack). Why drop one tonne bombs on crowded apartment buildings?

When did you stop beating your wife?

When you start asking questions in the proper manner, I will perhaps entertain you with an answer.

[Leon]

Originally posted by Dmitry
You dont have to say it, its obvious.What does this post below have to do with treatment of Palestinians?
http://bbs.clubplanet.com/showthread.php?threadid=185560
if it was about any other religion you would have never posted it , but it bothered you that a school had to apoligize to the Jews.

Wow, looks like a troll to me. He came here to "counter" opinion with ancient Arab propaganda that has little facts. He also tries to cover his anti-semitism with "Oh, I am not, I am just against Israel."

When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews, You are talking anti-Semitism".

- Dr. Martin Luther King Jr. in a speech at Harvard University shortly before his assassination in 1968, from "The Socialism of Fools" The Left, the Jews and Israel by Seymour Martin Lipset; in Encounter, (December 1969), p. 24.

Btw, that post of his in CP wasn't even about a Palestinian cause, it was about a Nazi anthem being played in school. And I love how his babble and postings of anti-Jew articles are not even getting replies there.

Anyone who would state that Israel started all three wars against the Arabs is someone who is either clueless or who is a hateful little brat. In either case, not someone I would want to waste more time on.

[raver_mania]

OK - point taken.