Ashcroft: The Worst in History? [Archive] - NightClubCity.com: New York Nightlife Guide, New York Nightclubs

View Full Version : Ashcroft: The Worst in History?

Leon

10-03-2003, 11:42 AM

The opening sentence of this CSM article says it all: "Attorney General John Ashcroft is running a dead heat with A. Mitchell Palmer, attorney general in the Wilson administration, for the distinction of being the worst in that job (http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1002/p09s01-coop.html?entryBottomStory) in the history of the United States."

Capt'nAmerica

10-03-2003, 12:42 PM

Originally posted by Leon
The opening sentence of this CSM article says it all: "Attorney General John Ashcroft is running a dead heat with A. Mitchell Palmer, attorney general in the Wilson administration, for the distinction of being the worst in that job (http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/1002/p09s01-coop.html?entryBottomStory) in the history of the United States."

What I find ironic about this article is that he criticises the practices of Ashcroft and the Justice dept but offers no solution.

He claims the govt is pissing on the constitution by detaining ILLEGAL aliens that are in violation of their visas. Yes they are from the middle east but last I checked it's arabs extremists that are trying to kill us. Common sense is our best freind in this war, lets use it.

The terrorists live among us and exploit our civil liberties to create destruction and murder. I can honestly say that I or my immediate family have not been affected by the PATRIOT ACT except for keeping us alive. If a person is suspect of wrong doing why wouldn't we look at them closer, listen it's not like that person will be taken away UNLESS they have incriminating evidence against them. If a person is found with instructions to make chemical weapons,maps of subways, in this country illegally and arab you trying to tell me he ISN'T up to no good? C'mon this guy has replaced common sense with being politically correct .

My take is,
.. Thank God for Ashcroft and co..

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 01:53 PM

Originally posted by Capt'nAmerica
What I find ironic about this article is that he criticises the practices of Ashcroft and the Justice dept but offers no solution.

He claims the govt is pissing on the constitution by detaining ILLEGAL aliens that are in violation of their visas. Yes they are from the middle east but last I checked it's arabs extremists that are trying to kill us. Common sense is our best freind in this war, lets use it.

The terrorists live among us and exploit our civil liberties to create destruction and murder. I can honestly say that I or my immediate family have not been affected by the PATRIOT ACT except for keeping us alive. If a person is suspect of wrong doing why wouldn't we look at them closer, listen it's not like that person will be taken away UNLESS they have incriminating evidence against them. If a person is found with instructions to make chemical weapons,maps of subways, in this country illegally and arab you trying to tell me he ISN'T up to no good? C'mon this guy has replaced common sense with being politically correct .

My take is,
.. Thank God for Ashcroft and co..

Problem is, only a small percent of the people detained are found with any sort of "incriminating" evidence. Most are held just because of visa overstays, etc. And in many cases its not even thier fault - the old INS had some very ambigous laws regarding the grace period between when your visa expires and when you have to leave the country.
I know, I was on a visa.
And the people held are held for lonnng periods of time without any lawyers being able to consult them, etc. Yes, that is a breach of civil liberties. Just because they are "aliens"(what a dumb term) does not make them less than human.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 02:08 PM

Additionally - you say you and your family have not been directly affected by these laws. Would you be singing a different tune if someone close to you had been affected?

Capt'nAmerica

10-03-2003, 02:10 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Problem is, only a small percent of the people detained are found with any sort of "incriminating" evidence. Most are held just because of visa overstays, etc. And in many cases its not even thier fault - the old INS had some very ambigous laws regarding the grace period between when your visa expires and when you have to leave the country.
I know, I was on a visa.
And the people held are held for lonnng periods of time without any lawyers being able to consult them, etc. Yes, that is a breach of civil liberties. Just because they are "aliens"(what a dumb term) does not make them less than human.

After 911 the rules changed sorru we can't afford to be lax with our borders and immigration policies.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 02:16 PM

Originally posted by Capt'nAmerica
After 911 the rules changed sorru we can't afford to be lax with our borders and immigration policies.

Understood, but you can't make foreigners pay for the mistakes of the INS.

Capt'nAmerica

10-03-2003, 02:27 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Understood, but you can't make foreigners pay for the mistakes of the INS.

Arab foreingners should until we get our arms around this....

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 02:56 PM

Originally posted by Capt'nAmerica
Arab foreingners should until we get our arms around this....

Guilty because they're from the same region as some fanatics. Therefore guilty by association? By that token all white people should pay for the mistakes of the KKK.

Capt'nAmerica

10-03-2003, 03:06 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Guilty because they're from the same region as some fanatics. Therefore guilty by association? By that token all white people should pay for the mistakes of the KKK.

The KKK didn't drop 2 skyscrapers

.gene.

10-03-2003, 03:10 PM

Originally posted by Capt'nAmerica
The KKK didn't drop 2 skyscrapers

Exactly among, other things, the crimes committed by the KKK (who are a joke) are miniscule compared to the atrocities arab extremists have committed & continue to commit daily.

Capt'nAmerica

10-03-2003, 03:13 PM

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 03:17 PM

Originally posted by gene_2K
Exactly among, other things, the crimes committed by the KKK (who are a joke) are miniscule compared to the atrocities arab extremists have committed & continue to commit daily.

Exactly - Arab extemists! And I'm sure you guys are intelligent enough to know that not all "arabs" are bad. And there's no need to treat the suspect as guilty before proven that. I thought this country was based on innocent until proven guilty.

I really wonder what tune you'd be singing if someone close to you went through hell just because he/she came from a certain region of the world.

.gene.

10-03-2003, 03:25 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Exactly - Arab extemists! And I'm sure you guys are intelligent enough to know that not all "arabs" are bad. And there's no need to treat the suspect as guilty before proven that. I thought this country was based on innocent until proven guilty.

I really wonder what tune you'd be singing if someone close to you went through hell just because he/she came from a certain region of the world.

I've said this before in another post in relation to this topic (see muslim stamp post in the drama section). The 9/11 hijackers all lived in arab communities in the U.S.
There's no way in hell that no one in those communities knew what they were planning. I am certain there were & still are people in those communities that helped them plan or at best ignored what has about to happen. That makes them guilty. Until those communities denounce extremist terrorism & do their part to root those people out of those communities, they will be seen as aiding terrorism & be under suspicion.
I have not one seen any clerics or community leaders speak out against terrorism or denounce the slaughter of innocents on 9/11, all was mentioned was "don't discriminate against us we're not all bad", and I did see celebrations in the streets.
Once again Silence = acceptance.
And if me or someone close to me came from a background that was known & responsible for hundreds of terrorist acts I would certainly understand the "profiling"

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 03:27 PM

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 03:33 PM

Originally posted by gene_2K
I've said this before in another post in relation to this topic (see muslim stamp post in the drama section). The 9/11 hijackers all lived in arab communities in the U.S.
There's no way in hell that no one in those communities knew what they were planning. I am certain there were & still are people in those communities that helped them plan or at best ignored what has about to happen. That makes them guilty. Until those communities denounce extremist terrorism & do their part to root those people out of those communities, they will be seen as aiding terrorism & be under suspicion.
I have not one seen any clerics or community leaders speak out against terrorism or denounce the slaughter of innocents on 9/11, all was mentioned was "don't discriminate against us we're not all bad", and I did see celebrations in the streets.
Once again Silence = acceptance.

Thats because you haven't looked very far. How many Muslim newspapers have you picked up and read? How many mosques have you been to? I've seen, numerous times, news where it was reported that local muslim leaders reject violence, especially terrorism. I've also read articles in newspapers, paper, and on-line.

So, you're telling me that alll these communities knew what these guys were planning. Thats BS man, you don't really believe that. That many people, all in silent agreement...thats as absurd as the conspiracy theory that the ISraelis were behind the terror attacks, and all the Jews in NYC knew about it.

Its always easy to just pick a people to put blame on, especially if you already have something against the said people(I read on one of the posts that you're Jewish).

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 03:36 PM

Originally posted by *~Eleni~*
My boyfriends family went thru hell to get here.but unlike these people you speak of they LOVE this country and all it has to offer, beautifying it as much as they can..can you say the same thing about the Arabs that were dancing in the streets after 911??
I think not....

I guess you're one of the few people that don't know that that footage was shot before (or about the same time) 9/11 happened. In other words, those people were NOT dancingbecause of 9/11, but for somethiing else and CNN took it out of context. There was a retraction a few days later by CNN - guess you didn't bother to read that.

There are many Arabs who went through hell to get here and love this coutnry. Whats your point? Why demonize a whlole people because of a guilty few. Do you guys actually glare at any Arab/dark skinned person you come across on the street? I really hope not because that does not show much character.

.gene.

10-03-2003, 03:40 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Thats because you haven't looked very far. How many Muslim newspapers have you picked up and read? How many mosques have you been to? I've seen, numerous times, news where it was reported that local muslim leaders reject violence, especially terrorism. I've also read articles in newspapers, paper, and on-line.

So, you're telling me that alll these communities knew what these guys were planning. Thats BS man, you don't really believe that. That many people, all in silent agreement...thats as absurd as the conspiracy theory that the ISraelis were behind the terror attacks, and all the Jews in NYC knew about it.

Its always easy to just pick a people to put blame on, especially if you already have something against the said people(I read on one of the posts that you're Jewish).

Maybe not every single person in those communties knew obviously, but enough people that matter, also can you show me some documentation of where these community leaders denounced these terrorist acts?
As for the conspiracy theory that the Iraelis were behind the terror attacks, and all the Jews in NYC knew about it,. those theories were put out by arabs and you mention picking a people to put blame on, you've been doing that with just about every post you posted including the little "on a lighter note" picture post you put up which coincidently including an arab youth throwing rocks among burning tires..so spare me your so-called open mindedness...all your arguements are one sided

.gene.

10-03-2003, 03:41 PM

""I guess you're one of the few people that don't know that that footage was shot before (or about the same time) 9/11 happened. In other words, those people were NOT dancingbecause of 9/11, but for somethiing else and CNN took it out of context. There was a retraction a few days later by CNN - guess you didn't bother to read that.""

Until I see the actual retraction I do not believe that for a second.

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 03:42 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
I guess you're one of the few people that don't know that that footage was shot before (or about the same time) 9/11 happened. In other words, those people were NOT dancingbecause of 9/11, but for somethiing else and CNN took it out of context. There was a retraction a few days later by CNN - guess you didn't bother to read that.

There are many Arabs who went through hell to get here and love this coutnry. Whats your point? Why demonize a whlole people because of a guilty few. Do you guys actually glare at any Arab/dark skinned person you come across on the street? I really hope not because that does not show much character.

I guess you are one of the few people that didnt see them with your eyes..as I did, at the Mosque on Steinway Street in Astoria Queens..a few of them got a can of whoop ass taken out by some Italian men who happen to hang out at a bar across the street..and the rest were taken by the police who feared they would be killed..please stop you are embarassing yourself.

I do not GLARE at anyone, and actually one of my best friends recently converted to the Muslim religion..there is NO doubt that he loathes the Western government and their "ways" he speaks to me about it on a weekly basis and preaches your Holy Book to me as well..you arent speaking to someone that knows nothing..I am fully aware of the news reporters and their ways as well, but I also live in a largely Muslim poulated area...just stop it.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 03:45 PM

Originally posted by gene_2K
Maybe not every single person in those communties knew obviously, but enough people that matter, also can you show me some documentation of where these community leaders denounced these terrorist acts?
As for the conspiracy theory that the Iraelis were behind the terror attacks, and all the Jews in NYC knew about it,. those theories were put out by arabs and you mention picking a people to put blame on, you've been doing that with just about every post you posted including the little "on a lighter note" picture post you put up which coincidently including an arab youth throwing rocks among burning tires..so spare me your so-called open mindedness...all your arguements are one sided

Jesus Christ - you're saying I'm one-sided because of a fuckin picture out of dozens! I didn't create that site - my girlfriend, who works at national Geographic here in DC sent me the site. So its probably their pics! Damn, thats really some conclusion you've come to.
No, the person who's one-sided is you - you don't seem to read well into my posts since you think Israel (specifically the Israeli govt) represents the whole Jewish population world-wide. Show me a post of mine where I directly condemn Jewish people. On the other hand, you've consistently shown your disdain for Arab people in numerous posts.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 03:50 PM

Originally posted by *~Eleni~*
I guess you are one of the few people that didnt see them with your eyes..as I did, at the Mosque on Steinway Street in Astoria Queens..a few of them got a can of whoop ass taken out by some Italian men who happen to hang out at a bar across the street..and the rest were taken by the police who feared they would be killed..please stop you are embarassing yourself.

I do not GLARE at anyone, and actually one of my best friends recently converted to the Muslim religion..there is NO doubt that he loathes the Western government and their "ways" he speaks to me about it on a weekly basis and preaches your Holy Book to me as well..you arent speaking to someone that knows nothing..I am fully aware of the news reporters and their ways as well, but I also live in a largely Muslim poulated area...just stop it.

Wel, if you've seen some msulims celebrate with your own eyes I have no choice but to trust you. But you seem set in your hatred toward Arabs because of a few. I have muslim friends (lots) who love this country, and hate Al Queda and such for what they've done, and doing to the ISlamic faith.
Why should I "stop it"? Is it really that difficult to try not blame an entire people for the actions of a few?

I have a question for you - you see someone walking on the street and they look vaguely ME/dark. How do you know they're Arab, and not Indian or Pakistani, and how do you know they're Mulslim?

Capt'nAmerica

10-03-2003, 03:51 PM

Originally posted by gene_2K
I have not one seen any clerics or community leaders speak out against terrorism or denounce the slaughter of innocents on 9/11, all was mentioned was "don't discriminate against us we're not all bad", and I did see celebrations in the streets.
Once again Silence = acceptance.
[/B]

Good point. Not one cleric has come forward to denounce the attacks, all you hear is praise especially in these hate filled mosques. Where is the outcry from the muslim world after 911?
It's a HOLY WAR even though we don't like to call it that in this country but it was declared on us go preach in mosque about terrorism see how far you get.

.gene.

10-03-2003, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Jesus Christ - you're saying I'm one-sided because of a fuckin picture out of dozens! I didn't create that site - my girlfriend, who works at national Geographic here in DC sent me the site. So its probably their pics! Damn, thats really some conclusion you've come to.
No, the person who's one-sided is you - you don't seem to read well into my posts since you think Israel (specifically the Israeli govt) represents the whole Jewish population world-wide. Show me a post of mine where I directly condemn Jewish people. On the other hand, you've consistently shown your disdain for Arab people in numerous posts.

There's no need for you to directly show your disdain against Jews, you've shown that through all your anti-Israeli posts ..and I'm quite aware that the Israeli gov't isn't a representation of Jews world wide.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 03:53 PM

Originally posted by Capt'nAmerica
Good point. Not one cleric has come forward to denounce the attacks, all you hear is praise especially in these hate filled mosques. Where is the outcry from the muslim world after 911?
It's a HOLY WAR even though we don't like to call it that in this country but it was declared on us go preach in mosque about terrorism see how far you get.

You seem to know what is taught in Mosques. You been to one and heard a sermon? How do you know what they're saying?

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 03:55 PM

Originally posted by gene_2K
There's no need for you to directly show your disdain against Jews, you've shown that through all your anti-Israeli posts ..and I'm quite aware that the Israeli gov't isn't a representation of Jews world wide.

Why would I show a disdain against Jews? Hell, I'm Indian, and HIndu - if anything I would show an affiliation for them since Israel and India share the same problem with terrorism.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 03:56 PM

Not trying to be antagonist against anyone...just trying to understand the thought processes that leads to hatred of an entire group/religions because of the actions of a few.
Its just mind-boggling!

.gene.

10-03-2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Why would I show a disdain against Jews? Hell, I'm Indian, and HIndu - if anything I would show an affiliation for them since Israel and India share the same problem with terrorism.

That's not necessarily true, there are leftist Jews & other religions in Isreal & the U.S. that are pro-palestine (but you won't find any arabs that are pro-Isreal or US), just because you are of a certain ethnic background doesn't necessarily mean you have to back a certain group/party

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 03:58 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Wel, if you've seen some msulims celebrate with your own eyes I have no choice but to trust you. But you seem set in your hatred toward Arabs because of a few. I have muslim friends (lots) who love this country, and hate Al Queda and such for what they've done, and doing to the ISlamic faith.
Why should I "stop it"? Is it really that difficult to try not blame an entire people for the actions of a few?

I have a question for you - you see someone walking on the street and they look vaguely ME/dark. How do you know they're Arab, and not Indian or Pakistani, and how do you know they're Mulslim?

Jesus Christ!! YOu're saying that I hate an entire religion when I never said anything that would bring you to that conclusion!! I didnt make anyone dance in the streets, I was an inocent bystander. Damn thats really some conclusion you have come to!
I am Greek, and very dark skinned in the summer myself..I dont walk down the street playing the game of "Find That Muslim"...I only know what I have seen with my own eyes and heard with my own ears.

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 03:59 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Not trying to be antagonist against anyone...just trying to understand the thought processes that leads to hatred of an entire group/religions because of the actions of a few.
Its just mind-boggling!

Why would it boggle your mind? Take a look at yourself in a mirror, you are doing the very same thing...the hypocrisy of it all is amazingly funny.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by gene_2K
That's not necessarily true, there are leftist Jews & other religions in Isreal & the U.S. that are pro-palestine (but you won't find any arabs that are pro-Isreal or US), just because you are of a certain ethnic background doesn't necessarily mean you have to back a certain group/party

True. But leftists usually are against a certain political party or belief, not against their own religion/culture/people as a whole. If there are , then I'd consider them marginal and extremist and not really representative of "lefties".
I also agree that there are not many Arabs who're pro-Israeli as such, but there are many Palestinian people who wish peace with the Israelis. Don't know if there's a difference between the two.

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 04:02 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
You seem to know what is taught in Mosques. You been to one and heard a sermon? How do you know what they're saying?

So what you are saying is that every Muslim person in a Mosque completely understands what they are saying? If so, I will tell you myself that they do NOT as I know many personally..many MANY Muslims are not even Arab..just stop it please..you are obviously arguing every point you feel that you can find somewhere...

Capt'nAmerica

10-03-2003, 04:05 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
You seem to know what is taught in Mosques. You been to one and heard a sermon? How do you know what they're saying?

Not all mosques but most... Bro don't kid your self 911 was hatched in BinLaden head but grew and concealed in Muslim extremist mosques.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 04:08 PM

Originally posted by *~Eleni~*
Why would it boggle your mind? Take a look at yourself in a mirror, you are doing the very same thing...the hypocrisy of it all is amazingly funny.

I'm doing what? Whats funny is how you equate my dislike for Sharon and his policies as hating all Jewish people.
I've said, at least in one post here, and many in CP, that the true victims of this violence are the people on both sides of the conflict. That includes all innocent Israeils, and *gasp* yes Jews.
I've never seen anyone here show any concern for the Innocent Palestinians.

And in this post all I've done is question your disdain of Arabs and muslims. That comes through pretty obviously. Maybe thats not hte case, but it does come through as such.

Leon

10-03-2003, 04:08 PM

.gene.

10-03-2003, 04:09 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
True. But leftists usually are against a certain political party or belief, not against their own religion/culture/people as a whole. If there are , then I'd consider them marginal and extremist and not really representative of "lefties".
I also agree that there are not many Arabs who're pro-Israeli as such, but there are many Palestinian people who wish peace with the Israelis. Don't know if there's a difference between the two.

The way i'm looking at it is, if a person is leftist for example & his leftist beliefs threaten the security of his/her country/people/religion etc then inadvertenly that person is against the welfare & safety of his/her country/people/religion etc...for example leftist politicians who want to cut the military budget in a time of war or politcians who rather hire incompetent airport screeners rather than arm our pilots & have bullet proof doors... (just using that as an example)
But that's a whole other topic that I don't have the time to get into right now..lol

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 04:11 PM

Originally posted by *~Eleni~*
So what you are saying is that every Muslim person in a Mosque completely understands what they are saying? If so, I will tell you myself that they do NOT as I know many personally..many MANY Muslims are not even Arab..just stop it please..you are obviously arguing every point you feel that you can find somewhere...

You can choose not to read my posts if you don't like it. And I don't understand your point? I know not all of them are Arab (there are aslo Iranians, Pakistanis, Indian, etc, etc). And what do you mean they don't understand everything said in mosques? Then, in the case some extremist muslim leader is actually preaching hate, then how are these people to know that hes doing that? Why would these people be guilty if they don't even know whats being taught?

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 04:14 PM

Originally posted by Leon
Put up or shut the <a href="http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm">fuck up</a>.

Next time you will you need espouse your bullshit you need to know you will be put in your quiet little dunce corner.

What - you can't argue like an adult, and need to "put me in my corner". Where's Dmitry in all this?
Let me see - I'm not directing personal insults against anybody, arguing and questioning viewpoints...and all I get in reply is "shut up"!

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 04:16 PM

Originally posted by gene_2K
The way i'm looking at it is, if a person is leftist for example & his leftist beliefs threaten the security of his/her country/people/religion etc then inadvertenly that person is against the welfare & safety of his/her country/people/religion etc...for example leftist politicians who want to cut the military budget in a time of war or politcians who rather hire incompetent airport screeners rather than arm our pilots & have bullet proof doors... (just using that as an example)
But that's a whole other topic that I don't have the time to get into right now..lol

That is a whole other debate, and I might actually agree with you on some of those points. But not now...enough politics, now to get some work done so I can get the hell outta here!

Leon

10-03-2003, 04:17 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
What - you can't argue like an adult, and need to "put me in my corner". Where's Dmitry in all this?
Let me see - I'm not directing personal insults against anybody, arguing and questioning viewpoints...and all I get in reply is "shut up"!

I am an admin and can ban your little inflammatory trolling ass out of here faster than you can say, "what happened."

Your post to Eleni:

I guess you're one of the few people that don't know that that footage was shot before (or about the same time) 9/11 happened. In other words, those people were NOT dancingbecause of 9/11, but for somethiing else and CNN took it out of context. There was a retraction a few days later by CNN - guess you didn't bother to read that.

Your opinion, logic, and bias looking horrid <a href="http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm">here</a>.

Got anything to say for yourself? Or are you going to dance around the fact that you are one hateful little being who is mired in misery since no one here, or anywhere else is swallowing your bullshit?

Capt'nAmerica

10-03-2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by Leon
Put up or shut the <a href="http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm">fuck up</a>.

Next time you will you need espouse your bullshit you need to know you will be put in your quiet little dunce corner.

I read it and if you closely at the video it seems like it's pre dawn, right aroud 3pm when those cock roaches were dancing in the street....

Leon

10-03-2003, 04:20 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
That is a whole other debate, and I might actually agree with you on some of those points. But not now...enough politics, now to get some work done so I can get the hell outta here!

Notice how he disappears when his propaganda is put in its place?

One more trolling thread, raving_lunatic, and you can spend your time on CP copying and pasting copyrighted articles that no one replies to.

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 04:22 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
You can choose not to read my posts if you don't like it. And I don't understand your point? I know not all of them are Arab (there are aslo Iranians, Pakistanis, Indian, etc, etc). And what do you mean they don't understand everything said in mosques? Then, in the case some extremist muslim leader is actually preaching hate, then how are these people to know that hes doing that? Why would these people be guilty if they don't even know whats being taught?

Are you serious? WOW You must confuse many an idiot with that word play and the manipulation of peoples words to suit your own needs but it will NOT work here..you see here we are much more intelligent than your average joe, we are must more educated in all areas of the world and we happen to be "lucky" enough to have some personal experiences we can draw from.
And another thing, when its time to preach hate, they make sure their entire congregation understands because they deploy an entire group of translators to explain to the members that do not the speak Arab language..once agin..just stop it..I know more than you do about what goes on in Mosques..pick another topic to argue with ME about.

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 04:26 PM

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by Leon
I am an admin and can ban your little inflammatory trolling ass out of here faster than you can say, "what happened."

Your post to Eleni:

Your opinion, logic, and bias looking horrid <a href="http://www.snopes.com/rumors/cnn.htm">here</a>.

Got anything to say for yourself? Or are you going to dance around the fact that you are one hateful little being who is mired in misery since no one here, or anywhere else is swallowing your bullshit?

Damn man, I don't know about the "hateful little being" part. It seems like you need to calm down more than me. I'm actually not that hateful at all - just dislike Sharon and co...thought I'd made that abundantly clear.
There are many conflicting reports of why those kids were dancing - I've read that kids normally dance when they're getting taped, and this was a similiar case. How many scenes have you seen where Palestinians kids have been dancing on the streets?

Anyway, you can ban me if you'd like, but on what grounds?
Just curious.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 04:29 PM

Originally posted by *~Eleni~*
Are you serious? WOW You must confuse many an idiot with that word play and the manipulation of peoples words to suit your own needs but it will NOT work here..you see here we are much more intelligent than your average joe, we are must more educated in all areas of the world and we happen to be "lucky" enough to have some personal experiences we can draw from.
And another thing, when its time to preach hate, they make sure their entire congregation understands because they deploy an entire group of translators to explain to the members that do not the speak Arab language..once agin..just stop it..I know more than you do about what goes on in Mosques..pick another topic to argue with ME about.

How do you know now much I know about mosques? You might very well be educated - I never said you weren't. However, I don't understand your reason to associate a whole people because of the actions of a few.

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 04:31 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Damn man, I don't know about the "hateful little being" part. It seems like you need to calm down more than me. I'm actually not that hateful at all - just dislike Sharon and co...thought I'd made that abundantly clear.
There are many conflicting reports of why those kids were dancing - I've read that kids normally dance when they're getting taped, and this was a similiar case. How many scenes have you seen where Palestinians kids have been dancing on the streets?

Anyway, you can ban me if you'd like, but on what grounds?
Just curious.

You are arguing EACH and every FACT that we are posting..this leads people to conclude that you are a hateful little being..you yourself are basically pointing your dirty ignorant finger at us for each opposition we take, why would this surprise you fool?

PRAYTELL..Why else were they dancing?

TWIT.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 04:32 PM

Originally posted by Leon
Notice how he disappears when his propaganda is put in its place?

One more trolling thread, raving_lunatic, and you can spend your time on CP copying and pasting copyrighted articles that no one replies to.

What propaganda? I'm just tryng to point out that its illogical to hate a whole group of people, from various contries and backgrouds based on the actions of a few.

But in return I get insulted, and then threatened to be banned.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by *~Eleni~*
You are arguing EACH and every FACT that we are posting..this leads people to conclude that you are a hateful little being..you yourself are basically pointing your dirty ignorant finger at us for each opposition we take, why would this surprise you fool?

PRAYTELL..Why else were they dancing?

TWIT.

lol - this is quite funny...the people who're calling me a "hateful little being" are the ones hurling insults. :chuckle

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 04:33 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
How do you know now much I know about mosques? You might very well be educated - I never said you weren't. However, I don't understand your reason to associate a whole people because of the actions of a few.

Are you really this slow? Are you not the one concluding we are haters based upon our responses? From your foolish responses to Mosque going ons I have concluded you know nothing of the topic of which you speak of. Is that simple enough?

Go ahead, twist my words to yet another surprising detail you have uncovered that will explain your beliefs..its quite amusing to read..

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
lol - this is quite funny...the people who're calling me a "hateful little being" are the ones hurling insults. :chuckle

I never called you a hateful being therefore I will hurl insults as I see fit. There comes a time when a person can only take so much from an ignorant fool and loses his cool. You seem to be playing on that..very good..but NOT good enough.

Go back to the place where you are "smart" and "well-versed" and admired for your "information" because it is more than anyone else has to offer..you are drowning here my friend.

Leon

10-03-2003, 04:37 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
There are many conflicting reports of why those kids were dancing - I've read that kids normally dance when they're getting taped, and this was a similiar case. How many scenes have you seen where Palestinians kids have been dancing on the streets?

You just slammed Eleni for a very definite answer via, I guess you're one of the few people that don't know that that footage was shot before (or about the same time) 9/11 happened. In other words, those people were NOT dancingbecause of 9/11, but for somethiing else and CNN took it out of context. There was a retraction a few days later by CNN - guess you didn't bother to read that.

When totally rebutted, you soften with There are many conflicting reports of why those kids were dancing - I've read that kids normally dance when they're getting taped, and this was a similiar case.

So NOW, when facts are spread under your nose it's "conflicting" whereas before you concluded with There was a retraction a few days later by CNN - guess you didn't bother to read that.

I guess you didn't bother to check CNN either (my link provides a statement from CNN) and never expected anyone to know about Palestinian bullshit propaganda and how many of us have heard the silly arguments over and over before? You, sir, are an amateur in all of this, a newbie, green.

As to the lame excuse that "hey, I am Indian, I am not a Jew hater". Perhaps you would like to tell the forum what Pakistan was prior to being broken up by British mandate? Perhaps you would like to let people know how many Muslims still live there? Ever hear of Gujarat? I bet you did. I bet that word still gives you nightmares and hunger for vengeance.

As for the reasons of banning you? It's simple, look up the definition of a troll and you will see yourself. I am not sure about Dmitry but I do not tolerate ignorant trolls who have nothing to offer the forum other than same old Palestinian propaganda.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 04:39 PM

Originally posted by *~Eleni~*
Are you really this slow? Are you not the one concluding we are haters based upon our responses? From your foolish responses to Mosque going ons I have concluded you know nothing of the topic of which you speak of. Is that simple enough?

Go ahead, twist my words to yet another surprising detail you have uncovered that will explain your beliefs..its quite amusing to read..

Whats amusing is your continued use of insults. There's no twisting of words here - its your word against mine. I have many friends who're muslims and they have none of that hate for Western culture that you speak of. REgarding mosques, you might know more than me - I'm not muslim and don't go to mosques. I only know whats told to me.

*~Eleni~*

10-03-2003, 04:46 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
Whats amusing is your continued use of insults. There's no twisting of words here - its your word against mine. I have many friends who're muslims and they have none of that hate for Western culture that you speak of. REgarding mosques, you might know more than me - I'm not muslim and don't go to mosques. I only know whats told to me.

I believe Leon asked you a few questions..instead you respond to me..more simple to do that I guess?

Leon

10-03-2003, 05:11 PM

Originally posted by *~Eleni~*
I believe Leon asked you a few questions..instead you respond to me..more simple to do that I guess?

He won't answer them straight on.

I've been doing forums for over 16 years, beginning with CompuServe and I've seen his type.

Come in, troll (fish wise with bait not the monster), see who bites and then continue an illusion of a debate. Then throw out propaganda pieces and see if anyone calls them up on them.

If no, they continue, if someone catches them on their lie, they plead innocence as if they didn't know what they were espousing was propaganda. Then, when people getting angry with them for branding an entire group of people (in this instance Jews), for catching them in lies, they start with the defensive, "hey, what have I done to you, I wasn't insulting you!"

Needless to say, insulting this forum's intelligence, and insulting an entire people is much much more serious of a moral and ethical deviousness than insulting the guilty party.

Especially, when they are caught red-handed like this one was.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 05:23 PM

Originally posted by Leon
He won't answer them straight on.

I've been doing forums for over 16 years, beginning with CompuServe and I've seen his type.

Come in, troll (fish wise with bait not the monster), see who bites and then continue an illusion of a debate. Then throw out propaganda pieces and see if anyone calls them up on them.

If no, they continue, if someone catches them on their lie, they plead innocence as if they didn't know what they were espousing was propaganda. Then, when people getting angry with them for branding an entire group of people (in this instance Jews), for catching them in lies, they start with the defensive, "hey, what have I done to you, I wasn't insulting you!"

Needless to say, insulting this forum's intelligence, and insulting an entire people is much much more serious of a moral and ethical deviousness than insulting the guilty party.

Especially, when they are caught red-handed like this one was.

Well, it seems like you're attempting to profile me, eventhough I don't agree with your classification and know who I am better than you - however, you're not going to believe that because it seems you're set in your views.

Numerous times I've told you that I'm NOT against Jewish people only Sharon and his policies - however, thats besides the point because THIS particular post was about categorizing Arabs as villians just because of the actions of a few. How can you not see that? And all I did was defend the notion of innocent until proven guilty. Where did you get Jew-hating from any of my posts?

What are your questions again (as Eleni seems to think that I'm skirting them)?
Whatever man - you're just going to twist my words again and misinterpret them as "Jew-hating". Whats the use?

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 05:24 PM

And you haven't caught me red-handed doing anything except defending foreigners (the innocent ones) and pointing out certain cases of brutality by the Israeli government (and to a lesser degree Jewish extremists).

admin

10-03-2003, 08:14 PM

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 08:15 PM

OK, maybe I was wrong about the footage, as I'd not read about the further confusion surrounding the footage. I'm not afraid to admit that.
However, here is an article that I think you should read - its written by a Palestinian, and has some really good points and some biased viewpoints(which I don't necessarily agree with). Try to read it with an open mind...especially with regards to the kids celebrating.
Again, its just wrong to categorize a whole group of people as being evil - some of you seem to be doing that, ironically, while accusing me of hating all Jews.

There was another post by you which you seem to have deleted(Leon)...anyway, to answer that, I started out this post by defending the innocent foreigners who get detained by INS because of visa violations caused by inefficient and ambigous INS laws. And, yes, I still will say that Israel makes living conditions hell for Palestinians, such that all they have is despair. Give them something to live for and I assure you there will be a lot less people willing to be suicide bombers. With a thriving economy, groups such as Hamas will lose their popularity and will dwindle and die. Or there might be a civil war - regardless there will be motivation for change.
The current cycle of occupation and repression is not going to do anything except cause more killings. Back and forth. Back and forth.
At this point, all that is asked for is independence...give them that, and if the terrorist attacks continue on an organized front (I say organized because you will probably have the lone nutjob trying to disrupt things) go in and crush the groups. If these groups still insist on not recognizing the right of Israel to exist, then I'll be 110% Israel in their efforts to protect themselves. That has always been my view, and always will be.

And regarding your post about Pakistan being part ofIndia before independence, and Gujarat, etc...I don't see what you are trying to get at.

The thing with this board is, if there is anti-Muslim or anti-Palestinian propaganda its fine, but when someone with anti-Israel views comes on he gets blasted. Not really an open debate.

Anyway, here is the article:

http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article512.shtml
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
The Palestinian people, as a whole, portrayed as supportive of the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon
Nigel Parry, The Electronic Intifada, 12 September 2001

Yesterday and today, following the inhumane use of passenger planes as flying missiles to attack people visiting and working in the World Trade Center buildings in New York and in the Pentagon in Washington, most of the media broadcast footage depicting Palestinians celebrating.

The brief footage was typically broadcast cyclically and used as an interview aid, with anchors asking U.S. government officials and others how they felt about the images.

Almost universally on U.S. networks, anchors presented the footage as if it were representative of all Palestinians, additionally failing to note any context to the images.

A number of points must be made, first about the actual footage:

There are three million Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip and West Bank including Jerusalem, one million Palestinians living inside the borders of Israel, and another four million Palestinian refugees living elsewhere in the world, including the United States. The footage in question depicted between 20 and 40 individuals.

The Palestinians in the footage were mostly young children. Most of their behaviour in the footage appeared to be no different from how Palestinian children always behave when foreign journalists turn up in their towns, crowding and smiling at the camera and giving the victory sign that has been a symbol of Palestinian steadfastness under Israeli military occupation since the first Intifada in 1987. There is not a single reporter with any experience of carrying a camera into the Palestinian West Bank under any circumstance who couldn't get similar footage on any day they visited the occupied territories.

Where genuine rejoicing at the attacks was indeed apparent in the footage, anchors interpreting the footage made no effort to offer any context or background to the images, nor any attempt to separate those Palestinians portrayed from Palestinians as a whole. A comparable situation would be television anchors angrily reacting to scenes of the 1991 riots in Los Angeles, lamenting that "blacks do not respect law and order", while failing to note the preceding attack on Rodney King or endemic racial profiling of the black community in the U.S. by police forces.

The overwhelming number of Palestinians, like people of all nationalities, were sickened by the events in New York and Washington. Palestinians with relatives in New York and Washington spent much of yesterday worriedly trying to phone to check they were safe, exactly as many Americans did. Palestinian citizens of the United States will also turn out to be among the victims of the tragedy. Whatever a group of 20-40 Palestinian children happened to be doing yesterday morning in Nablus, East Jerusalem, or Ein Al-Hilweh Refugee Camp in Lebanon is no more representative of all Palestinians than the Klu Klux Klan rally -- which happened recently just down the road from where I live, in St. Paul, Minnesota -- is representative of all Americans.

In addition, there is an all-important context of brutalisation -- that anchors completely failed to note -- which explains why even a single person would find any cause to celebrate yesterday's terrible carnage:

For the last year now, Palestinian civilians have been living through a nightmare in which Israeli occupation forces have been nightly shelling their towns using tanks, helicopters, and other heavy weapons. Palestinians do not need a subscription to Jane's Defence Weekly to learn the origin of many of these weapons when they can pick up shell casings from the floors of their homes and from their backyards with MADE IN THE U.S.A. stamped on them. Weaponry used against Palestinians during the Intifada, much of which has been supplied to Israel by the United States or covered at some level by U.S. aid includes:
Heavy weapons:

F-16 fighter planes, Apache and Cobra attack helicopters, and Reshef patrol boats to attack Palestinian buildings and vehicles; and

Armoured pile drivers and armoured bulldozers to destroy Palestinian homes and agricultural land.

Heavy ammunition:

Naval and tank artillery including 76mm, 105mm and 120mm high explosive rounds;

M114 TOW rockets and Hell-Fire air-to-ground missiles; Shoulder-fired, anti-armour Light Anti-tank Weapons (LAW) rocket launchers firing 84mm or 90mm rockets; M203 and MK19 grenade launchers;

40-90 mm mortars; and

A modified version of the M494 105mm, an anti-personnel cluster bomb.

Smaller ammunition:

5.56 mm bullets for M-16 machine guns;

7.62 mm high velocity bullets for general purpose machine guns and Galil sniper rifles;

12.7 mm bullets for Browning machine guns and Barret sniper rifles; and

The "less lethal" rubber-coated and plastic-coated metal bullets.

See more on LAW: Israeli arms and human rights
The U.S. weaponry listed above has not been used proportionally for the purpose of defending Israel -- as one would hope any military aid is used -- but rather has been used disproportionally and offensively to kill over 600 Palestinians, one-third of whom are children, 60 percent of whom were killed outside of clash situations. The U.S. weaponry listed above has additionally been used to seriously injure another 15,000 Palestinians, 1,500 of whom have been crippled for life. That Israel has used "excessive force" to suppress the current Palestinian uprising against 34 years of its military occupation is a fact according to the United Nations Security Council, other UN bodies, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, Israeli human rights organisation B'Tselem, and the US State Department. However offensive the images of the small groups of Palestinians that were celebrating may be, the fact is that all those depicted in the images -- if they are under 34 years of age -- have known nothing but military occupation for the entirity of their lives. That celebration was the reaction of only a tiny minority of people in such a situation is a testimony to the Palestinians' maintainance of human values in a situation devoid of them.

Not only does the United States sell weapons and ammunition to Israel, but many of these weapons are supplied as U.S. aid to Israel. A current figure for U.S. aid currently given to Israel is $3 billion per year, which includes $1.2 billion in economic aid and $1.8 billion in military aid. It is difficult to offer this as a conclusive figure since additional money is given to Israel that is buried in the budgets of individual government agencies such as the Defense Department. Every Palestinian is aware that the U.S. supplies the weapons that Israel uses against them. That celebration was the reaction of only a tiny minority of people in such a situation is a testimony to the Palestinians' maintainance of human values in a situation devoid of them.

Every Palestinian is also aware that their television screens are never filled with images of Americans protesting the use of their tax dollars to pay for the missiles that shake their cities and create similarly distressing scenes of injured and shocked civilians, as seen yesterday in New York. That celebration was the reaction of only a tiny minority of people in such a situation is a testimony to the Palestinians' maintainance of human values in a situation devoid of them. The U.S. media broadcast the footage yesterday without explaining any of the above, something that is neither new nor -- any longer -- acceptable in light of the anti-Palestinian, anti-Arab and the anti-Muslim sentiment it creates. No organisation of journalists who seek to bring their viewers an accurate representation of reality should be broadcasting contextless, unrepresentative images that encourage racism against nationalities and their associated ethnic groups.

In the first few days following the 1995 attack on the Murrah Federal Building in Oklahoma, Arabs and Muslims in the U.S. reported more than 200 incidents of harassment, threats and actual violence. According to reports received by The Electronic Intifada and a press release yesterday from the Council on American-Islamic Relations there have already been reports of harassment and attacks against Arabs and Muslims in the United States. Hate mail and threats have also been directed at The Electronic Intifada and other Palestinian, Arab and Muslim websites.

As those of us who live in the U.S. are currently feeling justifiable anger at the perpetrators behind yesterday's shocking and horrifying events in New York and Washington DC, let us not misdirect it at an entire people who continue to suffer through one of the darkest periods of their already bleak history. The Palestinian people, who sit glued to their television sets in disturbed silence like the rest of the world, are actually better placed than most to understand what those of us living in America currently feel and are finding it hard to express.

raver_mania

10-03-2003, 08:17 PM

Originally posted by Dmitry
I live in Jersey city and I saw them dancing on the streets here, it was in a few Jersey city news papers the next day.

I did not know that. If thats true, then those particular people are fuckin idiots and deserve what they get. But its not fair to categorize all muslims as being like that. Thats the point I was trying to make in all of this.
Are you sure it was because of the 9/11 events and not something else. wow, thats a pretty stupid and insensitive thing to do.

admin

10-03-2003, 08:45 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania
I did not know that. If thats true, then those particular people are fuckin idiots and deserve what they get. But its not fair to categorize all muslims as being like that. Thats the point I was trying to make in all of this.
Are you sure it was because of the 9/11 events and not something else. wow, thats a pretty stupid and insensitive thing to do.

If it was someone's birthday that they were celebrating, they have to be pretty stupid to dance around at 5pm on 9-11 when everyone is crying and in shock. If you watched 20/20 that week they had an interview from Egypt with 5 students, one student said " dont let the media fool you, every Arab and every Muslim was celebrating behind closed doors when those towers fell. ". I work with a few Muslims and some I consider friends and they tell me alot what goes on in their communities and one told me that alot of people back in Pakistan were happy that 9-11 happened, even some of his relatives. I was a bit shocked when he told me this.

Dmitry

Leon

10-03-2003, 09:45 PM

Originally posted by raver_mania

There was another post by you which you seem to have deleted(Leon)...anyway,

I didn't delete any of your posts. I believe in letting people show what they are without any form of help.

That's the only thing I will comment on.

raver_mania

10-06-2003, 10:13 AM

Sorry, I didn't mean to say you deleted my post...I thought you posted something and then took it out, but I could be mistaken.

Originally posted by Leon
I didn't delete any of your posts. I believe in letting people show what they are without any form of help.

That's the only thing I will comment on.