Olympia Snowe: We Didn’t Have to Lose Arlen Specter

[Defekted]

From one of the few remaining Republican moderates left. She strikes at the heart of the arguement that the Republican Party is going in the wrong direction.....read her words closely, they echo mine from my conversation with Benny yesterday. I was gonna bold certain key lines, but found myself bolding everything..... so just read the entire thing.

--------------------------------------------------
April 29, 2009
Op-Ed Contributor (see how it works metfan? a republican senator as a guest writer....not all oped writers are on the NYT payroll ;) )

We Didn’t Have to Lose Arlen Specter
By OLYMPIA SNOWE
Washington

IT is disheartening and disconcerting, at the very least, that here we are today — almost exactly eight years after Senator Jim Jeffords left the Republican Party — witnessing the departure of my good friend and fellow moderate Republican, Senator Arlen Specter of Pennsylvania, for the Democratic Party. And the announcement of his switch was all the more painful because I believe it didn’t have to be this way.

When Senator Jeffords became an independent in 2001, I said it was a sad day for the Republicans, but it would be even sadder if we failed to confront and learn from the devaluation of diversity within the party that contributed to his defection. I also noted that we were far from the heady days of 1998, when Republicans were envisioning the possibility of a filibuster-proof 60-vote margin. (Recall that in the 2000 election, most pundits were shocked when Republicans lost five seats, resulting in a 50-50 Senate.)

I could have hardly imagined then that, in 2009, we would fondly reminisce about the time when we were disappointed to fall short of 60 votes in the Senate. Regrettably, we failed to learn the lessons of Jim Jeffords’s defection in 2001. To the contrary, we overreached in interpreting the results of the presidential election of 2004 as a mandate for the party. This resulted in the disastrous elections of 2006 and 2008, which combined for a total loss of 51 Republicans in the House and 13 in the Senate — with a corresponding shift of the Congressional majority and the White House to the Democrats.

It was as though beginning with Senator Jeffords’s decision, Republicans turned a blind eye to the iceberg under the surface, failing to undertake the re-evaluation of our inclusiveness as a party that could have forestalled many of the losses we have suffered.

It is true that being a Republican moderate sometimes feels like being a cast member of “Survivor” — you are presented with multiple challenges, and you often get the distinct feeling that you’re no longer welcome in the tribe. But it is truly a dangerous signal that a Republican senator of nearly three decades no longer felt able to remain in the party.

Senator Specter indicated that his decision was based on the political situation in Pennsylvania, where he faced a tough primary battle. In my view, the political environment that has made it inhospitable for a moderate Republican in Pennsylvania is a microcosm of a deeper, more pervasive problem that places our party in jeopardy nationwide.

I have said that, without question, we cannot prevail as a party without conservatives. But it is equally certain we cannot prevail in the future without moderates.

In that same vein, I am reminded of a briefing by a prominent Republican pollster after the 2004 election. He was asked what voter groups Republicans might be able to win over. He responded: women in general, married women with children, Hispanics, the middle class in general, and independents.

How well have we done as a party with these groups? Unfortunately, the answer is obvious from the results of the last two elections. We should be reaching out to these segments of our population — not de facto ceding them to the opposing party.

There is no plausible scenario under which Republicans can grow into a majority while shrinking our ideological confines and continuing to retract into a regional party. Ideological purity is not the ticket back to the promised land of governing majorities — indeed, it was when we began to emphasize social issues to the detriment of some of our basic tenets as a party that we encountered an electoral backlash.

It is for this reason that we should heed the words of President Ronald Reagan, who urged, “We should emphasize the things that unite us and make these the only ‘litmus test’ of what constitutes a Republican: our belief in restraining government spending, pro-growth policies, tax reduction, sound national defense, and maximum individual liberty.” He continued, “As to the other issues that draw on the deep springs of morality and emotion, let us decide that we can disagree among ourselves as Republicans and tolerate the disagreement.”

I couldn’t agree more. We can’t continue to fold our philosophical tent into an umbrella under which only a select few are worthy to stand. Rather, we should view an expansion of diversity within the party as a triumph that will broaden our appeal. That is the political road map we must follow to victory.
Olympia Snowe is a Republican senator from Maine.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/29/opinion/29snowe.html?_r=1&ref=opinion&pagewanted=print

[ShaE]

def
There is no plausible scenario under which Republicans can grow into a majority while shrinking our ideological confines and continuing to retract into a regional party. Ideological purity is not the ticket back to the promised land of governing majorities — indeed, it was when we began to emphasize social issues to the detriment of some of our basic tenets as a party that we encountered an electoral backlash.

[metfan85]

why do you keep saying moderate? they are clearly left-liberals. Anytime a conservative democrat like Gillibrand, Bob Conley or even Jim Webb before he was forced to convert, comes around they are never called moderate democrats.

again I don't like at things as republican/democrat i'm not a republican or a democrat. unlike you, i don't care about a letter after someone's name, I care about principles, the principles of localism, and limited government.

[Defekted]

why do you keep saying moderate? they are clearly left-liberals. Anytime a conservative democrat like Gillibrand, Bob Conley or even Jim Webb before he was forced to convert, comes around they are never called moderate democrats.

again I don't like at things as republican/democrat i'm not a republican or a democrat. unlike you, i don't care about a letter after someone's name, I care about principles, the principles of localism, and limited government.

if they are left liberals, lol, what are "conservative" democrats? socialists? and then what are centrist dems? communists? and then was are left wing dems? martians?

its rediculous. You are just way off to the right, so understandably, you looking to your left you will see EVERYONE as liberal.

No sense of balance in the political spectrum whatsoever. Just like Benny. You and him ARE NOT THE center. Saying spector and snowe are left-liberals is laughable.

[metfan85]

if they are left liberals, lol, what are "conservative" democrats? socialists? and then what are centrist dems? communists? and then was are left wing dems? martians?

its rediculous. You are just way off to the right, so understandably, you looking to your left you will see EVERYONE as liberal.

No sense of balance in the political spectrum whatsoever. Just like Benny. You and him ARE NOT THE center. Saying spector and snowe are left-liberals is laughable.

no shit i'm not the center you clown. i've never said i was. and yeah jim webb and conley are conservatives in my eyes. i believe jimmy carter was more conservative than most presidents in recent decades reagan included.

by the way i consider myself a left-conservative in the mold of a norman mailer, dylan hales. you know from the TS Eliot/Russel Kirk "permanent things" school of thought. not that you care since your whole existence is to take down history and to hell with posterity.

but guess what most of this country is a God fearing family values and community, really apolitical and just want to be left alone. this country has always been a self reliant country just wanted to be left alone. of course fools like you came along and tell everyone how to live. and steal their money while lying to get into office. i'm sure you're unaware how FDR campaigned on a platform of reducing the great spending of Hoover.

[Defekted]

no shit i'm not the center you clown. i've never said i was. and yeah jim webb and conley are conservatives in my eyes. i believe jimmy carter was more conservative than most presidents in recent decades reagan included.

by the way i consider myself a left-conservative in the mold of a norman mailer, dylan hales. you know from the TS Eliot/Russel Kirk "permanent things" school of thought. not that you care since your whole existence is to take down history and to hell with posterity.

but guess what most of this country is a God fearing family values and community, really apolitical and just want to be left alone. this country has always been a self reliant country just wanted to be left alone. of course fools like you came along and tell everyone how to live. and steal their money while lying to get into office. i'm sure you're unaware how FDR campaigned on a platform of reducing the great spending of Hoover.

explain to me again WHAT you have been forced to do since February 20th? Has your taxes gone up? nope. Have you been forced to fight in a war? nope. Did Obama the bully force you to quit going to church? to stop play street hockey on sundays? Did he raise your Rangers ticket prices???? Provide a list of all thing he has made you do..... and I will write him a letter on your behalf.

The fact of the matter is, he hasnt told anyone how to live. You are super paranoid man. There are no black helicopters. Your guns are safe. You can still kill deer on sundays. Dont be alarmed.

[Defekted]

Again this isnt about you or Benny. Because like I said, in the grand scheme of things, you both are irrelevant because your views are way out there. Relevant to yourselves and to debate on NCC among 10 other people, but totally irrelavent to a NATIONAL STRATEGY OF ONE PARTY FROM THE TWO PARTY SYSTEM WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY..... which is the WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

It isnt about you caring or not caring about D's or R's ...... this thread wasnt made for you. Its a critique of current Republican strategy to get back INTO NATIONAL POWER (majority in congress and executive branch)........... and unless you have a comment of how they will do that (and the "they can lose 38 of them for all i care" isnt quite a strategy that would work) then you can save your antigovernment rants..... cause like i said time and time again,..... its old.....its stale...... we can all recite it like our evening prayers taught in catechism class

[Benny B]

Again this isnt about you or Benny. Because like I said, in the grand scheme of things, you both are irrelevant because your views are way out there. Relevant to yourselves and to debate on NCC among 10 other people, but totally irrelavent to a NATIONAL STRATEGY OF ONE PARTY FROM THE TWO PARTY SYSTEM WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY..... which is the WHOLE POINT OF THIS THREAD.

It isnt about you caring or not caring about D's or R's ...... this thread wasnt made for you. Its a critique of current Republican strategy to get back INTO NATIONAL POWER (majority in congress and executive branch)........... and unless you have a comment of how they will do that (and the "they can lose 38 of them for all i care" isnt quite a strategy that would work) then you can save your antigovernment rants..... cause like i said time and time again,..... its old.....its stale...... we can all recite it like our evening prayers taught in catechism class

welll we have time and time again told you what they need to do but you disagree and dismiss it as a non stategy. you are a joke in your views because you cant see anything other than liberal mentality. you think everyone needs to become like a dem or like you to succeed. and that is wrong. the republicans to succeed need to stop being like the dems.. end of story.. there is nothing they need to do like the dems to be elected. because if they do what the dems do.. then guess what.. they are dems.. not republicans.. only way to become something is to differentiate who they are from the dems. right now. dems repubs they are one in the same.. and you cant see that because you are solely worried about the D or R next to their name,

[metfan85]

explain to me again WHAT you have been forced to do since February 20th? Has your taxes gone up? nope. Have you been forced to fight in a war? nope. Did Obama the bully force you to quit going to church? to stop play street hockey on sundays? Did he raise your Rangers ticket prices???? Provide a list of all thing he has made you do..... and I will write him a letter on your behalf.

The fact of the matter is, he hasnt told anyone how to live. You are super paranoid man. There are no black helicopters. Your guns are safe. You can still kill deer on sundays. Dont be alarmed.

you might just be to dense to realize, I said the same things about Bush and Clinton, Bush I, and Reagan . and no you can't kill deer on sundays, yes Rangers ticket prices did go up because of the bubble and no I have not been able to afford a gun since he came into office and yes it is because of Obama's decision to destroy military ammo instead of being recycled, and b/c of his decision to buy up civilian ammo leading to a shortage of ammunition. But i'm sure you think this is a good thing, b/c the only ppl who need guns are the goons who shoot the weirdos like the Branch Davidians.

Any student of history should know how gradual those things happen. Mussolini didnt make the "trains run on time" over night. And Obama is just another cog in the wheel like Bush and Clinton, he is no different, no worse, still evil.

[Defekted]

welll we have time and time again told you what they need to do but you disagree and dismiss it as a non stategy. you are a joke in your views because you cant see anything other than liberal mentality. you think everyone needs to become like a dem or like you to succeed. and that is wrong. the republicans to succeed need to stop being like the dems.. end of story.. there is nothing they need to do like the dems to be elected. because if they do what the dems do.. then guess what.. they are dems.. not republicans.. only way to become something is to differentiate who they are from the dems. right now. dems repubs they are one in the same.. and you cant see that because you are solely worried about the D or R next to their name,

Enough telling me what they shouldnt be like......tell me exactly what they should do and how that will grow their tent large enough to get back the majority and presidency. Lets talk seriously, how do the reps get hispanics, blacks, youth, independents...... any other key growinng demographics to get back in power.

stop being like dems isnt much of a strategy. How do you get northeast back? westcoast back? southwest and northwest back? midwest back?

important questions not answered yet.

[Defekted]

you might just be to dense to realize, I said the same things about Bush and Clinton, Bush I, and Reagan . and no you can't kill deer on sundays, yes Rangers ticket prices did go up because of the bubble and no I have not been able to afford a gun since he came into office and yes it is because of Obama's decision to destroy military ammo instead of being recycled, and b/c of his decision to buy up civilian ammo leading to a shortage of ammunition. But i'm sure you think this is a good thing, b/c the only ppl who need guns are the goons who shoot the weirdos like the Branch Davidians.

Any student of history should know how gradual those things happen. Mussolini didnt make the "trains run on time" over night. And Obama is just another cog in the wheel like Bush and Clinton, he is no different, no worse, still evil.

my point is your claim that he is telling people how to live, is bullshit. I was free with him as i was with bush. My life is still what I make of it..... i work hard, i care for my family and friends..... and things are good. And if they were bad, i wouldnt blame the president. I would blame the cirumstances in my own little bubble in society and try to fix it....... that doesnt mean i cant support the policies of one man (obama) that i think will help the country on a larger scale (a scale that make me an insignificane ant) or oppose the policies of another man (bush) which i thought was bringing this country way in the wrong direction (also on a large scale way above me)....... so either way, NEITHER told ME how to live, but EACH make big differences to our COUNTRY as a whole........

your comments actually make it seem like they are targeting YOU, and that YOUR life is shackled by policies from Washington.......thats nonesense my friend

[Benny B]

Enough telling me what they shouldnt be like......tell me exactly what they should do and how that will grow their tent large enough to get back the majority and presidency. Lets talk seriously, how do the reps get hispanics, blacks, youth, independents...... any other key growinng demographics to get back in power.

stop being like dems isnt much of a strategy. How do you get northeast back? westcoast back? southwest and northwest back? midwest back?

important questions not answered yet.

ASSHOLE LISTEN CLOSELY

they are one in the same.. People dont fucking trust them because they do nothing more then act like DEMS> so why would anyone vote for them.. they get back into power by BECOMING REPUBLICANS you can actually truust.. you get it?? or you to dumb and only defenese is .. welll welll provide everything to hispanics and everyone else just to get their vote.. you and your ideas do nothing more then trap people under the government wing and make them dependent upon the government. you do nothing more then buy everyones vote by raising taxes on everyone for the things you provide to them.. end of story.. get a fucking clue they are one in the same

[metfan85]

Enough telling me what they shouldnt be like......tell me exactly what they should do and how that will grow their tent large enough to get back the majority and presidency. Lets talk seriously, how do the reps get hispanics, blacks, youth, independents...... any other key growinng demographics to get back in power.

stop being like dems isnt much of a strategy. How do you get northeast back? westcoast back? southwest and northwest back? midwest back?

important questions not answered yet.

have you ever seen a Ron Paul rally? there's more youths, indepedents, more true diversity than any democrat rally that is there to cater to a minority special interest.

[ShaE]

getting a little catty guys lol

[Defekted]

ASSHOLE LISTEN CLOSELY

they are one in the same.. People dont fucking trust them because they do nothing more then act like DEMS> so why would anyone vote for them.. they get back into power by BECOMING REPUBLICANS you can actually truust.. you get it?? or you to dumb and only defenese is .. welll welll provide everything to hispanics and everyone else just to get their vote.. you and your ideas do nothing more then trap people under the government wing and make them dependent upon the government. you do nothing more then buy everyones vote by raising taxes on everyone for the things you provide to them.. end of story.. get a fucking clue they are one in the same

Like I said, just being a conservative right wing party will not grow the tent, just harden your base. But hey what do I know..... let's see what kind of candidate the Reps provide in 10, 12, 14, and 16. The direction that they are going, its getting scarier and scarier. Barring an unforeseen disaster on Obama's/Dem's in congress watch, I dont see Reps making gains in the foreseeable future..... Only thing that seems dumb to me in this thread, is your inability to think outside your very very very very small isolated conservative box. There is AN ENTIRE WORLD OUT THERE that has a different story to tell, different backgrounds, different pay grades, different views..... and by closing ranks in the Rep party to only white southern conservatives - you become irrelevant on A NATIONAL SCALE.

[Defekted]

have you ever seen a Ron Paul rally? there's more youths, indepedents, more true diversity than any democrat rally that is there to cater to a minority special interest.

i have seen Ron Paul rallies, and there is a libertarian wave of interest in this country, but still so small to make a dent. Kind of like the Green Party on the other side of the spectrum...... 1,2 maybe 5% max on election day.

Why was Ron Paul's performance so poor on the national level in the primary? he had the money, he had the grass roots, why didnt he win? he came in 3rd or 4th right?

[ShaE]

if you only want to appeal to and reinforce values found in ONE geographic part of the country, one race of people, and one faith of people, national office is not for you.

no party could restrict itself that way and compete nationally.

[ShaE]

have you ever seen a Ron Paul rally? there's more youths, indepedents, more true diversity than any democrat rally that is there to cater to a minority special interest.
since when do you see diversity as a positive thing?

[Defekted]

if you only want to appeal to and reinforce values found in ONE geographic part of the country, one race of people, and one faith of people, national office is not for you.

no party could restrict itself that way and compete nationally.

Thats my point exactly.

[Defekted]

Excerpt from a NYT oped......just a small portion cuase I have pasted enough articles in the past 2 days to fill my months qouta.

"The real import of this story isn’t the 60 votes. It’s that Arlen Specter, with his unparalleled instinct for self-preservation, became a Democrat because the people of Pennsylvania like the Democratic agenda better. And the Republicans were too fanatical or deluded to allow him to straddle the line.

“Well, if spending the hard-earned dollars of the American people and redistributing their wealth and moving towards a collectivist socialist approach to government, if that helps you realize you’re a Democrat, then, you know, good riddance,” Steele said.

The Republican Party has officially moved into nutcase territory. The Republican moderate caucus in the Senate is down to the two women from Maine. And we would all certainly like to listen in on their conversations on the plane ride home. "

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/30/opinion/30collins.html?_r=1&ref=opinion

[sadelb]

There is AN ENTIRE WORLD OUT THERE that has a different story to tell, different backgrounds, different pay grades, different views..... and by closing ranks in the Rep party to only white southern conservatives - you become irrelevant on A NATIONAL SCALE.

I totally agree with this. Whatever happened to the big tent. Regan welcomed everybody. Instead of hearing "Communism / Socialism / USA bankruptcy" I would rather hear republicans ideas / solutions as to how they can help the American people. You really dont see much of that anymore. Mostly fear tactics that nobody buys into. I definitely agree with Defekted that republican philosophies dont appeal to the general public as much as they use to. Especially with the younger generation.

[Benny B]

I totally agree with this. Whatever happened to the big tent. Regan welcomed everybody. Instead of hearing "Communism / Socialism / USA bankruptcy" I would rather hear republicans ideas / solutions as to how they can help the American people. You really dont see much of that anymore. Mostly fear tactics that nobody buys into. I definitely agree with Defekted that republican philosophies dont appeal to the general public as much as they use to. Especially with the younger generation.

ITS NOT THE FUCKING JOB OF THE U.S. GOVERNMENT TO HELP THE PEOPLE GET ANYHWERE!!!

its the job of the people of this country to get somewhere... the entitlement mentality that you all have is what will bankrupt this country. you cant keep giving and giving and giving like there is an endless supply of money.. i mean sure they will just print more so you can pay 142939 for a pack of gum. you dont get that this country is bankrupting itself with all these programs and entitlements that you all want for everyone..

the difference is you and defekted and likings all look to the government to solve your problems in life instead of having a backbone and standing on your own two and doing something for yourself.

[sadelb]

the difference is you and defekted and likings all look to the government to solve your problems in life instead of having a backbone and standing on your own two and doing something for yourself.

I have never looked to the government for any help. I work hard and I receive what I put in. I do know that there are people out there that maybe need that extra push to get them over the hump. Once they do get over it they will contribute to this economy. You see, you think about people that are just extremely lazy and trying to live off the government's money. I look at it differently. I see a kid who maybe had a tough upbringing with the right head on his shoulders who just needs to be put in the right direction to get where he needs to go.

Regan spread the gap between the rich and the poor by so much. I really dont understand how you think that helps the economy as a whole. Yeah the wealthy 1% will be paying higher taxes but in the end their businesses will actually benefit from this. The cutting taxes / trickle down effect DOES NOT WORK!

[ShaE]

sadelb, in this conversation, if you feel the gov't has any responsibility to its citizens period, you're feeling "entitled" & "looking for a hand out"

no win

[sadelb]

sadelb, in this conversation, if you feel the gov't has any responsibility to its citizens period, you're feeling "entitled" & "looking for a hand out"

no win

lol seriously... Look I agree with Benny in when he says everybody is responsible for their actions. You control your own destiny. But I also see another side of the story where people work hard and sometimes come into circumstances that are beyond their control. So what should we do then? Let them starve? Why not point them in the right direction so they can come out stronger and start inputting to this economy.

[Benny B]

I have never looked to the government for any help. I work hard and I receive what I put in. I do know that there are people out there that maybe need that extra push to get them over the hump. Once they do get over it they will contribute to this economy. You see, you think about people that are just extremely lazy and trying to live off the government's money. I look at it differently. I see a kid who maybe had a tough upbringing with the right head on his shoulders who just needs to be put in the right direction to get where he needs to go.

Regan spread the gap between the rich and the poor by so much. I really dont understand how you think that helps the economy as a whole. Yeah the wealthy 1% will be paying higher taxes but in the end their businesses will actually benefit from this. The cutting taxes / trickle down effect DOES NOT WORK!

and if you can actually believe for a second that only the top 1% are going to get a tax increase you are plain and fucking stupid. First off the corporate tax. there is no such thing because the corporate tax just gets passed onto the consumer. secondly cap and trade. in a time when people are tight on money the government is going to cause the prices of gas / energy etc all to go up and therefor do nothing mroe then raise taxes on everyone because the prices of good and services will go up to compensate for the cap and trade. and again cap and trade is nothing more then redistribution of wealth.. instead they should be giving tax incentives to companies to go green. and do better things.. cap and trade does nothing than charge you for pollution. which DOES NOT FIX the problem. now to top it off you have the government that wants to put in a mileage tax.. they want GPS devices added to cars. and you will be taxed on the type of road you drive on if its city / highway / interstate and all taxed at different rates. but hey i thought that was what the GAS tax is for.. ohh well because people stopped spending as much on fuel and conserved fuel now they feel they need to raise taxes again because they no longer have the money coming in. everything the government touches they do wrong.. its called power to the people.. not power to the government.

as for the kid with the good head and bad upbrining.. guess what.. if a person has a good head.. he doent need a push.. having a good head means doing the right things no matter what is going on in your life.

we have open boarders and all of a sudden our government says.. hey should we close off our borders because of the swine outbreak??? hmmm maybe they should have thought of that before... and lets what one person died in the u.s. from swine flu and now??? now they wanna close boarders.. tell that to the average 25 A DAY that die at the hands of an illegal immigrant.

every problem gets the wrong answer time and time from the government.. its up to the people to get things done in this country.. not the government..

[Benny B]

lol seriously... Look I agree with Benny in when he says everybody is responsible for their actions. You control your own destiny. But I also see another side of the story where people work hard and sometimes come into circumstances that are beyond their control. So what should we do then? Let them starve? Why not point them in the right direction so they can come out stronger and start inputting to this economy.

there no person in this country that would tell people to starve.. but when you create government programs like i dunno UNEMPLOYMENT and extend benefits 10000 times longer and longer. what does that do.. it enabled them to be laxed on their approach to finding a new job. there is a difference between the people that can help themselves. and the helpless.. there is not a single circumstance in any persons life.. that THEY CANNOT prepare for. its a matter of how they choose to run their life their answers to it and their willingness to sacrifice to prepare for those circumstances.

[jameznyhc]

explain to me again WHAT you have been forced to do since February 20th? Has your taxes gone up? nope. Have you been forced to fight in a war? nope. Did Obama the bully force you to quit going to church? to stop play street hockey on sundays? Did he raise your Rangers ticket prices???? Provide a list of all thing he has made you do..... and I will write him a letter on your behalf.

The fact of the matter is, he hasnt told anyone how to live. You are super paranoid man. There are no black helicopters. Your guns are safe. You can still kill deer on sundays. Dont be alarmed.

well why didnt he terminate Napolitanos profiling of right wingers, veterans, pro lifers, and people who want a border

[jameznyhc]

lol seriously... Look I agree with Benny in when he says everybody is responsible for their actions. You control your own destiny. But I also see another side of the story where people work hard and sometimes come into circumstances that are beyond their control. So what should we do then? Let them starve? Why not point them in the right direction so they can come out stronger and start inputting to this economy.

thats what giuliani did he took 1.2million off goverment assistance and brought it down to 360,000 .. workfare brother not entitlements .. if there was training availbale he made them clean the city up .. thats accountability..he also slahed govt across the board 20% and made nyc more efficent, clean, and safe then ever before ..he gave people huge tax cuts also .. thats our philosophy ..

[jameznyhc]

sadelb, in this conversation, if you feel the gov't has any responsibility to its citizens period, you're feeling "entitled" & "looking for a hand out"

no win

they should protect our borders they dont

they should deport illegals they dont ..and give then give them free healthcare..

medicaid and medicare should be profitable and accountable its not

social security money should be there.. its not its spent

they should not be in debt with China but we are..

they should not imprison people for drug usage /prositituion / gambling/ ... they do

they should not discriminate against race .. they do (only white males)

they should provide good school system .. they dont

[ShaE]

as for the kid with the good head and bad upbrining.. guess what.. if a person has a good head.. he doent need a push.. having a good head means doing the right things no matter what is going on in your life.
..
really? so people that have "good heads on their shoulders" are essentially perfect? they never do a "wrong" thing?

b/c according to you, having a good means means doing the right thing always.

that's true of NOBODY. hence our point. even the BEST people can get knocked down DESPITE their hard work. if they need a bit of slack to get back on their feet, i see NO PROBLEM w/ that.

enabling self sustence and recovery is great, enabling laziness is not.

[ShaE]

actually, i always felt being smart & having a good head on your shoulders meant you tried your best to make the right choices, but when you inevitably made a few wrong ones, you picked yourself up and were smarter for it.

apparently you feel if you screw up, or you fall on hard times outside your control, you deserve nothing.

[Benny B]

then tell me.. how else do you learn from your mistakes.. by living and improving and fixing your mistakes.. not by the government being there to save your ass everytime you make a mistake.. its called taking responsibity for your own actions.. when you have the government bailing your ass out everytime you make a mistake you never learn from your mistake..

[metfan85]

i have seen Ron Paul rallies, and there is a libertarian wave of interest in this country, but still so small to make a dent. Kind of like the Green Party on the other side of the spectrum...... 1,2 maybe 5% max on election day.

Why was Ron Paul's performance so poor on the national level in the primary? he had the money, he had the grass roots, why didnt he win? he came in 3rd or 4th right?

the Green Party is on the same side of the spectrum. Dont let anyone fool you. We're all decentralist, I'm no true libertarian, I'm from the Kirkian Old Right, but decentralists, Front Porchers, anti-warriors, anti-New Dealers of all types come together, the fringes are much more united than anyone says. Kirkpatrick Sale from FrontPorch Republic, Glenn Greenwald from Salon.com, Dylan Hales from Takimag and leftconservative.com, all on supposed opposite ends of the spectrum, all came together.

Ron Paul for one endorsed Chuck Baldwin, Ralph Nader, and the black lady, I forget her name.

If you want a true diversity of opinion, I suggest reading The American Conservative's election editions for '04 and '08, they had many different contributors endorsing many different candidates, from Obama to Nader to abstaining.

2004 (http://amconmag.com/issue/2004/nov/08/) 2008 (http://amconmag.com/issue/2008/nov/03/)

[ShaE]

then tell me.. how else do you learn from your mistakes.. by living and improving and fixing your mistakes.. not by the government being there to save your ass everytime you make a mistake.. its called taking responsibity for your own actions.. when you have the government bailing your ass out everytime you make a mistake you never learn from your mistake..
right, but nobody said it has to be ENTIRELY without aid from anybody, or anything.

help is not always a hand out benny. aid is not "saving somebody's ass", aid is supposed to be AIDING somebody, adding to their effort, assisting them IN HELPING themselves.

nobody is saying there should be some cureall for "every mistake" to "save your ass" and act as a substitute for personal responsibility. i dont understand why you cannot see middle ground. you think all or nothing, either you get no help, or you get your "ass saved".

why can't somebody who is responsible and smart, make a mistake, learn from it, and catch a break that HELPS him do better in the process?

aid.

[ShaE]

if a married couple loses both their jobs, unemployment will keep them fed, but it wont' keep their house, or pay their bills, etc, so acting like any type of aid "saves people from all their mistakes" is just bull.

they ultimately must take responsibility and find employment to handle their costs, unemployment (in this example) is just helping to tide them over, it's not nearly enough for anybody to live on & pay their bills.

the key is structuring what aid is given in such a way that there is less abuse, and more benefit.

[ShaE]

also, not everybody who finds themselves in a bad place is there b/c of their own mistakes.

[ShaE]

the Green Party is on the same side of the spectrum. Dont let anyone fool you. We're all decentralist, I'm no true libertarian, I'm from the Kirkian Old Right, but decentralists, Front Porchers, anti-warriors, anti-New Dealers of all types come together, the fringes are much more united than anyone says. Kirkpatrick Sale from FrontPorch Republic, Glenn Greenwald from Salon.com, Dylan Hales from Takimag and leftconservative.com, all on supposed opposite ends of the spectrum, all came together.

Ron Paul for one endorsed Chuck Baldwin, Ralph Nader, and the black lady, I forget her name.

If you want a true diversity of opinion, I suggest reading The American Conservative's election editions for '04 and '08, they had many different contributors endorsing many different candidates, from Obama to Nader to abstaining.

2004 (http://amconmag.com/issue/2004/nov/08/) 2008 (http://amconmag.com/issue/2008/nov/03/)
so you think diversity of opinion is a good thing, but not diversity of people or culture within your country?

[Benny B]

right, but nobody said it has to be ENTIRELY without aid from anybody, or anything.

help is not always a hand out benny. aid is not "saving somebody's ass", aid is supposed to be AIDING somebody, adding to their effort, assisting them IN HELPING themselves.

nobody is saying there should be some cureall for "every mistake" to "save your ass" and act as a substitute for personal responsibility. i dont understand why you cannot see middle ground. you think all or nothing, either you get no help, or you get your "ass saved".

why can't somebody who is responsible and smart, make a mistake, learn from it, and catch a break that HELPS him do better in the process?

aid.

guess what shae.. anyone and i mean absolutely ANYONE that goes all in and fails is NOT FUCKING SMART cause SMART PEOPLE NEVER GO ALL IN and risk landing on their ass. people will always be smarter and better for the future when we allow them to fail. failing isnt a bad thing.. its only a failure if you dont learn from it. and if we dont allow these people to learn then what are we doing?? because its not helping them.. its enabling them to fail

[Benny B]

if a married couple loses both their jobs, unemployment will keep them fed, but it wont' keep their house, or pay their bills, etc, so acting like any type of aid "saves people from all their mistakes" is just bull.

they ultimately must take responsibility and find employment to handle their costs, unemployment (in this example) is just helping to tide them over, it's not nearly enough for anybody to live on & pay their bills.

the key is structuring what aid is given in such a way that there is less abuse, and more benefit.

so you cant prepare for that kind of situation?? like saving money and having an emergency fund for said instance??? its up to the people to make sure they have money in their pockets for any situation.. not living on the edge of being broke anyone who loses their job / jobs should be prepared for that as worst case scenario. and if they arent because they have this payment that payment and every other payment.. guess what.. they are probably over extended. you cant seem to grasp that its up to the people and their decisions of what to spend and what not to spend is what will make them more or less secure in rough times..

[Benny B]

also, not everybody who finds themselves in a bad place is there b/c of their own mistakes.

its called taking responsibility for your actions.. i.e. you working for a company that goes under.. who decided to work for the bad company??? umm the person who is now in a bad situation??? whos fault is it. .the company or the person who worked for a bad company... if you smart you know who you working for.. and dont allow a job to control your future.. take control of your own future by educating yourself about the company you work for..

[ShaE]

i dont think helping somebody recover from a mistake, or right themselves is enabling them to fail.

that's like saying every kid should teach himself what he doesn't understand, b/c tutors just "enable" laziness lol if you have the drive and the will to learn where u went wrong, and do things RIGHT from now on, whatever helps you on that path is not negative, it's constructive.

if the aid is temporary and its result is HELPING people make better choices, smarter choices, and plan better, then i'm all for it. if it's excessive and lax, and enables people to NOT address their shortcomings and failures, then i'm against it.

i realize 100% that we all make mistakes and learning from them is the true value of it, but that's not all for naught if somebody or something helps you do just that.

[Benny B]

i dont think helping somebody recover from a mistake, or right themselves is enabling them to fail.

that's like saying every kid should teach himself what he doesn't understand, b/c tutors just "enable" laziness lol if you have the drive and the will to learn where u went wrong, and do things RIGHT from now on, whatever helps you on that path is not negative, it's constructive.

if the aid is temporary and its result is HELPING people make better choices, smarter choices, and plan better, then i'm all for it. if it's excessive and lax, and enables people to NOT address their shortcomings and failures, then i'm against it.

i realize 100% that we all make mistakes and learning from them is the true value of it, but that's not all for naught if somebody or something helps you do just that.

what you dont get is the government answer to every solution is just throwing money at the problem.. throwing money at a problem does not fix it. it enables bad behavior..

wellfare have another kid you cant afford here bigger check

got bad mortgage here ya goo.. we'll pay for it reduce your interest rates etc etc/

social security.. heyyy dont worry everyone dont save your money we'll take care of ya when you get older..

if we are going to aid people you aid them by education.. by making them smarter.. not by throwing money at the situation and saying ok.. keep movin on.. our government isnt in place to keep people afloat. i dont care what anyones situation is.. its none of the governments place to fix any of it

[jameznyhc]

I totally agree with this. Whatever happened to the big tent. Regan welcomed everybody. Instead of hearing "Communism / Socialism / USA bankruptcy" I would rather hear republicans ideas / solutions as to how they can help the American people. You really dont see much of that anymore. Mostly fear tactics that nobody buys into. I definitely agree with Defekted that republican philosophies dont appeal to the general public as much as they use to. Especially with the younger generation.

wow your really insane ..Reagan dedicated his life fighting big govt , socialism and communism .. during the cold war you like the rest of the libs (who hated his guts) ..I would argue Reagan was 5 times to the right of George Bush who was the most liberal republican to hold office besides his dad



<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fRdLpem-AAs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fRdLpem-AAs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[jameznyhc]

here he really nails it

<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/yt1fYSAChxs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/yt1fYSAChxs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

[Defekted]

wow your really insane ..Reagan dedicated his life fighting big govt , socialism and communism .. during the cold war you like the rest of the libs (who hated his guts) ..I would argue Reagan was 5 times to the right of George Bush who was the most liberal republican to hold office besides his dad



<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/fRdLpem-AAs&hl=en&fs=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/fRdLpem-AAs&hl=en&fs=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>

His point is that Reagans idea (eventhough they are completely discredited now) were at least new and creative at the time...... republican repeating the same mantra over and over and over and over makes them look so out of touch and, frankly, dumb. No creativity, no fresh and new ideas for todays problems, no solutions..... just name calling, fear tactics, and "no taxes"..... its pathetic and the american public are not listening anymore......

[ShaE]

i didn't say that particular situation was an example of something out of your control.

catatrohpic illness is one though. that'll wipe out your savings real fast , even with coverage. people go bankrupt on the back of hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical costs.

people like that shouldn't get a break? people that worked hard, saved, were responsible, and find themelves ill, with insurance companies that won't pay, or reach the max amt the policyholder is entitled to? they should lose everything, b/c they happened to get disastrously sick or hurt?

[ShaE]

what you dont get is the government answer to every solution is just throwing money at the problem.. throwing money at a problem does not fix it. it enables bad behavior..

wellfare have another kid you cant afford here bigger check

got bad mortgage here ya goo.. we'll pay for it reduce your interest rates etc etc/

social security.. heyyy dont worry everyone dont save your money we'll take care of ya when you get older..

if we are going to aid people you aid them by education.. by making them smarter.. not by throwing money at the situation and saying ok.. keep movin on.. our government isnt in place to keep people afloat. i dont care what anyones situation is.. its none of the governments place to fix any of it
i agree, education is better than throwing money at it. i think reform is in order for sure, but you wanna scrap the concept b/c you dont like how it's being carried out.

bad idea.

i didn't say it's the gov'ts place to fix peoples' problems, but we elect them, we pay them, we pay taxes, and how our tax dollars are spent SHOULD BENEFIT US.

you wanna say they have no obligation to us fine, but i like getting something for my money.

[jameznyhc]

His point is that Reagans idea (eventhough they are completely discredited now) were at least new and creative at the time...... republican repeating the same mantra over and over and over and over makes them look so out of touch and, frankly, dumb. No creativity, no fresh and new ideas for todays problems, no solutions..... just name calling, fear tactics, and "no taxes"..... its pathetic and the american public are not listening anymore......

but Obamas policy was tried by europe, carter and lbj .. all massive failures ..name one new idea barry presented? .. lol reagan actually addresses every Obama position in these clips .. why? cause barry goin back to FDR as well

some new ideas we will have

Fair tax
elimination of IRS
social security money must be put in personal accts
school vouchers nationally
decriminalization of narcotics, prostition, and gambling
eliminate imminent domain
fair trade
eliminate fedral reserve
spending freezes until defcit no longer exists
wall along the border
suspend legal immigration until we have a surplus
eliminate CRA
eliminate HUD
eliminate frannie and freddy nationalized subsidized banks
reinstall glass-stegall
install domestic drilling and nuclear energy first then when private enterprise comes up with an alternative that easier and faster

[ShaE]

its called taking responsibility for your actions.. i.e. you working for a company that goes under.. who decided to work for the bad company??? umm the person who is now in a bad situation??? whos fault is it. .the company or the person who worked for a bad company... if you smart you know who you working for.. and dont allow a job to control your future.. take control of your own future by educating yourself about the company you work for..
wow, i never thought of all that, please benny.

i'll say it again, not every person that finds himself in a bad spot is there b/c he made a mistake

just like not every wealthy or successful person is such based on their own hard work, talents, or merit

[ShaE]

.. during the cold war you like the rest of the libs (who hated his guts)


</EMBED>
i'm fairly certain "us libs" were a tad too young to really be politically conscious during the cold war.

[Benny B]

i didn't say that particular situation was an example of something out of your control.

catatrohpic illness is one though. that'll wipe out your savings real fast , even with coverage. people go bankrupt on the back of hundreds of thousands of dollars in medical costs.

people like that shouldn't get a break? people that worked hard, saved, were responsible, and find themelves ill, with insurance companies that won't pay, or reach the max amt the policyholder is entitled to? they should lose everything, b/c they happened to get disastrously sick or hurt?

shae i know ya gonna disgree with this completely.. however.. who says anyone is entitled to beat a disease or illness?

our government was not put in place for that purpose.. people can afford what they can afford. again its an option.. you can opt to let the disease take its course.. or you can opt to throw everything and the kitchen sink at it..

thats the persons choice... if i came down with a disease that i could beat because i have the money to beat it.. then thats the benefit of having the money to beat it.. again.. not everyone is entitled to live to 100 years old..

[ShaE]

shae i know ya gonna disgree with this completely.. however.. who says anyone is entitled to beat a disease or illness?

our government was not put in place for that purpose.. people can afford what they can afford. again its an option.. you can opt to let the disease take its course.. or you can opt to throw everything and the kitchen sink at it..

thats the persons choice... if i came down with a disease that i could beat because i have the money to beat it.. then thats the benefit of having the money to beat it.. again.. not everyone is entitled to live to 100 years old..
i'm not asserting everyone has a right to a long life or health, you completely missed my point. i never said we have a right to beat any sickness we get either.

i asked, they should not be given any aid, or any breaks, considering the fact they are in financial dire straits through no fault of their own?

you say people should live within their means, save, buy a home, etc. they do all that, and watch it all go down the drain, with no aid from the gov't, no tax write off, no program to help them w/ medical costs, etc all b/c why? you don't think people should have any help from the gov't.

[Benny B]

i'm not asserting everyone has a right to a long life or health, you completely missed my point. i never said we have a right to beat any sickness we get either.

i asked, they should not be given any aid, or any breaks, considering the fact they are in financial dire straits through no fault of their own?

you say people should live within their means, save, buy a home, etc. they do all that, and watch it all go down the drain, with no aid from the gov't, no tax write off, no program to help them w/ medical costs, etc all b/c why? you don't think people should have any help from the gov't.

again.. you missed my point.. whos fault is it they lost everything down the drain because they spent it on medical bills? the disease. or the desire to beat the illness and live longer?

[ShaE]

your suggestion, rather than try to address the issue of insane inflated healthcare costs, is to say, if u can't afford the treatment, just go ahead and live with it, or die.

you'd rather just say, fuck it, than attempt to enact some kind of plan that would assist hardworking people in receiving the treatment they need, while managing the costs?
seems like u want to avoid actually finding a solution.

how about we make healthcare more affordable, b/c we get robbed right now, and put plans in place that help people w/ very serious situations MANAGE them, as opposed to just sending them home to die/go bankrupt?

you don't want to think of a solution b/c frankly you don't give a shit about anyone but yourself.
it's quite clear you 100 percent believe anybody that's struggling is doing so b/c they're a waste.

[ShaE]

again.. you missed my point.. whos fault is it they lost everything down the drain because they spent it on medical bills? the disease. or the desire to beat the illness and live longer?
i would say the health care system that is overinflated beyond all imagination costwise.

i don't fault anybody for wanting to treat disease, or cope with injury. wtf do you do if you're paralyzed? if you cannot care for yourself? brain injury? this is what i meant by catatrophic illness, wtf can you do if you cannot do without the care? just pull out your handy firearm and take one to the head?

say it's too expensive to keep me alive, i can't pay the cost of care, pull the plug?

[Benny B]

your suggestion, rather than try to address the issue of insane inflated healthcare costs, is to say, if u can't afford the treatment, just go ahead and live with it, or die.

you'd rather just say, fuck it, than attempt to enact some kind of plan that would assist hardworking people in receiving the treatment they need, while managing the costs?
seems like u want to avoid actually finding a solution.

how about we make healthcare more affordable, b/c we get robbed right now, and put plans in place that help people w/ very serious situations MANAGE them, as opposed to just sending them home to die/go bankrupt?

you don't want to think of a solution b/c frankly you don't give a shit about anyone but yourself.
it's quite clear you 100 percent believe anybody that's struggling is doing so b/c they're a waste.

everything in life has a cost.. some things are expensive some things arent. fact is.. even if everyone on this planet was "covered" the prices would still be through the roof costs wise. for r/d and testing and everything else.

but putting "universal" health care in place will do nothing but bankrupt us faster then we already are going bankrupt.

a solution for health care is a lot deeper then just providing to all, you cant provide to all untill the costs are brought to a affordable rate.. otherwise you bankrupt the country by doing so. you fix the problem before you compound it

[Benny B]

i would say the health care system that is overinflated beyond all imagination costwise.

i don't fault anybody for wanting to treat disease, or cope with injury. wtf do you do if you're paralyzed? if you cannot care for yourself? brain injury? this is what i meant by catatrophic illness, wtf can you do if you cannot do without the care? just pull out your handy firearm and take one to the head?

say it's too expensive to keep me alive, i can't pay the cost of care, pull the plug?

yes pull the plug.. like i said.. not everyone is entitled to get treatment.. not everyone is entitled to live to 100 years old..

i dont care what disease what illness what anything is.. its your decision to try and afford it or not.. and if you try to afford it and lose everything by doing so. .it was due to you wanting to live longer.. and that should not be at the expense of everyone else. if i got sick today and it would cost my life savings to keep me alive.. guess what.. pull the fucking plug im outta here.. cause my life insurance, my savings and everything else would be there to provide for the ones i leave behind.. and that to me is better then keeping me on life support.

[metfan85]

so you think diversity of opinion is a good thing, but not diversity of people or culture within your country?

of course a diversity of people is not good. a community is a group of people held together by common background not many different backgrounds. even when diverse backgrounds come together it is usually by a common thread, baseball for example.

diverstiy of opinion and diversity of cultures in 1 community is the ultimate case of apples and oranges.

how do you expect people to come together in town if they are different? what background do they have to come together? that have nothing in common.
You would do yourself much good by reading Bill Kaufmann's Look Homeward America: In Search of Reactionary Radicals and Front Porch Anarchists (http://www.amazon.com/Look-Homeward-America-Reactionary-Radicals/dp/1932236872)
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51B3P1B1HDL._SL500_AA240_.jpg



I totally agree with this. Whatever happened to the big tent. Regan welcomed everybody. Instead of hearing "Communism / Socialism / USA bankruptcy" I would rather hear republicans ideas / solutions as to how they can help the American people. You really dont see much of that anymore. Mostly fear tactics that nobody buys into. I definitely agree with Defekted that republican philosophies dont appeal to the general public as much as they use to. Especially with the younger generation.

:heythere:heythere:heythere:heythere

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2125/1546946901_d914477c88.jpg

[metfan85]

Thats my point exactly.

oh please your point is making everyone do as Washington says so long as it fits the left wing agenda, you fake freedom loving bullshit artist. You're nothing more than a fraud just like Marx and Engels, both lived very rich lives, never practiced what they preached, you;re the same way, you fraud.

As long as it is a democrat instead of a republican you're ok with it, pea brain, chimp (http://nightclubcity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2009909&postcount=12), chicken hawk (http://nightclubcity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1972340&postcount=3), "bitch (http://nightclubcity.com/forum/showpost.php?p=2923114&postcount=18)"

[ShaE]

you would do some good for yourself if you realized how entirely wrong this statement is:

how do you expect people to come together in town if they are different? what background do they have to come together? that have nothing in common.


if they have kids? families? they have something in common, WANTING BETTER FOR THEIR KIDS. if they are human, they want a place to live, a job to support themselves, and food on the table, their property protected.

they don't have that humanity in common? how did blacks and whites fight together for this country when they had "differences"? they were diverse, different, yet they felt their lives, families, and country threatened & fought for it when called.

you don't think diverse people can come together? 9/11 ring a bell? were people only helping others that were the same as them? was every ny'er not concerned that day, for their lives & families & their city? did bystanders only bring water and food to workers that were the same color as them at ground zero?

[jameznyhc]

i'm fairly certain "us libs" were a tad too young to really be politically conscious during the cold war.

youtube- great sorce .. just type in reagan press conferences ..

history books

old newspaper articles

documentaries

everything then can be accessed now